Clutch pedal judder

[Phil jessop]

On my Avant A4 2.0 2016 with 51.000 miles recorded the clutch pedal while resting my foot on it i can feel a vibration & dipping the clutch & holding down there is a judder & when i was in a stationary position I could hear a light metallic sound this has just started yesterday & today seems worse, the clutch is fine & pulls without any problems, im thinking of popping im the clutch centre (mr clutch) in the morning, any help before i do would be helpful

[Magnet]

Hello Philip,

My stab at it is not going to be good news I’m afraid, but it’s sounds as if the dual mass flywheel is beginning to grizzle and will require replacement. If so, then this becomes a big job, including dismantling the 3 part clutch assembly ( which it would be daft not to renew at the same time). 
 

Mr. Clutch? I can’t offer any experience of their - franchise? outlets. One principle which has stood me in stead is to only use quality parts for such important applications, and obviously using cheaper parts (still with a so called 1 year warranty) can result in it being necessary to have to get the job done again much sooner than you would expect. 
OK, you may insist that only quality parts - such as LUK - are used, but in reality, you won’t have any knowledge of what make of parts they actually do use. Of course, they will tell you they only use OEM parts - a much used statement! 
Worth getting a quote from your trusted local garage using quality parts which you can supply, having bought them at discount?

Perhaps you could let us know how you get on Philip. 

Kind regards,

Gareth. 

[Stevey Y]

Hi not Mr Clutch, they only use there own refurbished units which go again in record time thats why they are cheap, they did a clutch on my Alfa and the first one went in six weeks, after the replacement was fitted it lasted three months after which I bought a genuine Valeo clutch and fitted it myself, that was two years ago and its still fine, have a look on eBay and buy your own LUK unit then as Gareth suggested find a local garage.

[Magnet]

Never too old to learn from other folks experiences - good and bad. 
Many thanks Steve.

Kind regards,

Gareth. 

[Stevey Y]

48 minutes ago, Magnet said:

Never too old to learn from other folks experiences - good and bad. 
Many thanks Steve.

Kind regards,

Gareth. 

Hi Gareth, when I asked the guy the first time the clutch started slipping what brand of clutch they had used he replied that they are their own brand of remanufactured clutches, then explained that the clutch assemblies were stripped cleaned and any parts that were badly worn were replaced and new friction material was put on the driven plate, sorry but any metal component that has springs and bearing surfaces and been living in a world of five hundred degrees for 70k is not really usable due to metallurgical deformation.

Went into the world of remanufacturing and it makes for depressing reading, the wear checks are if it looks ok it will go again, rebuilt is a better world marginally as if done by the manufacturer of the original item as this involves a lot of new parts so the item technically will perform as new, an example that springs to mind is a friend of mine back in the eighties had a 3.0 S Capri which had knocked out the big ends, A genuine Ford recon engine was about a grand so he opted for a remanufactured unit from a place in London at £500 we went and collected it in his dads old Vauxhall Viva van, we then spent a weekend fitting it and it wouldn't idle smoothly, we looked at the invoice which mentioned reground crank new shells etc as well as completely remanufactured heads, all good, a week later we got a carb overhaul kit and still no joy, we both stood there in a fit of despair, my mate was talking about setting light to it and claiming off the insurance, I decided to have the rocker covers off and run it to see if there was anything obvious like a bent push rod and there was the answer, as it was a V6 it had two cylinder heads and on one of the castings it had HC hi compression the other had LC low compression, they had fitted the first heads that came to hand.

 

 

Steve.

[Phil jessop]

On 10/29/2021 at 8:55 AM, Magnet said:

Hello Philip,

My stab at it is not going to be good news I’m afraid, but it’s sounds as if the dual mass flywheel is beginning to grizzle and will require replacement. If so, then this becomes a big job, including dismantling the 3 part clutch assembly ( which it would be daft not to renew at the same time). 
 

Mr. Clutch? I can’t offer any experience of their - franchise? outlets. One principle which has stood me in stead is to only use quality parts for such important applications, and obviously using cheaper parts (still with a so called 1 year warranty) can result in it being necessary to have to get the job done again much sooner than you would expect. 
OK, you may insist that only quality parts - such as LUK - are used, but in reality, you won’t have any knowledge of what make of parts they actually do use. Of course, they will tell you they only use OEM parts - a much used statement! 
Worth getting a quote from your trusted local garage using quality parts which you can supply, having bought them at discount?

Perhaps you could let us know how you get on Philip. 

Kind regards,

Gareth. 

 

[Phil jessop]

Hi Gareth

The car was stripped at that garage & i went to inspect the pulled out clutch I just turned up without telling them & the guy showed me the problem it was the Duel mass flywheel he showed me it rocked from side to side when pressing down each side & said this was the cause of the shuddering the bearing was ok as well as the clutch but said we would advise to change the lot as a matter of course which i agreed, the dual mass flywheel came from vw direct as he could not get one off shelve he said they are expensive approx £1600 complete + vat & fitting I did go away & ask at jayar parts & they said only get that part from TPS & yes about right price so they said, the car was done & i went to collect this morning the guy said there is a lot of wear on the crankshaft so you may find it still might not be right as you will get shudder on the pedal etc, i was bit put out what he was saying

anyway I drove the car to my works & it was just the same as when i took it in if not worse, tick over is fine but on acceleration standing still its not right sounds bit bit lumpy & touching the clutch pedal theres much vibration when i depress the clutch it does sound better with less judder i emailed there office & they responded straight away & want me to take it back in the morning, 

what are your thoughts please

regards

phil

[Magnet]

Oh blinking heck Philip. I feel for you. 
It was obviously a good call to replace the DMF and a genuine VAG should do all its meant to do for many years to come. 
I would being cynical if I questioned whether they did actually fit a genuine VAG part - wouldn’t I. Yes, forget I asked that. 
Quality DMF such as LUK not available? Could be, but worth checking with LUK technical that it isn’t? 
It was also a good call to suggest the remaining clutch assembly is changed while the car is stripped. 
Question:- Were the remaining parts purchased from VAG, or were they aftermarket? If it turns out they were aftermarket then ask the simple question - what brand? 
You may get the answer -OEM. If so re-ask the question. 
Crankshaft ‘worn’? In what respect? Thrust bearing allowing forward movement? 

Apologies for all the questions, and this one - Why did the garage hand this car back to you with a four figure bill, with  symptoms similar to when you left it with them for repair? 

Assertive, sounds to be the way forward here. 
Perhaps you could let us know how you get on. 
Again, sorry for your plight.

Kind regards,

Gareth. 

[Phil jessop]

On 11/3/2021 at 7:03 PM, Magnet said:

Oh blinking heck Philip. I feel for you. 
It was obviously a good call to replace the DMF and a genuine VAG should do all its meant to do for many years to come. 
I would being cynical if I questioned whether they did actually fit a genuine VAG part - wouldn’t I. Yes, forget I asked that. 
Quality DMF such as LUK not available? Could be, but worth checking with LUK technical that it isn’t? 
It was also a good call to suggest the remaining clutch assembly is changed while the car is stripped. 
Question:- Were the remaining parts purchased from VAG, or were they aftermarket? If it turns out they were aftermarket then ask the simple question - what brand? 
You may get the answer -OEM. If so re-ask the question. 
Crankshaft ‘worn’? In what respect? Thrust bearing allowing forward movement? 

Apologies for all the questions, and this one - Why did the garage hand this car back to you with a four figure bill, with  symptoms similar to when you left it with them for repair? 

Assertive, sounds to be the way forward here. 
Perhaps you could let us know how you get on. 
Again, sorry for your plight.

Kind regards,

Gareth. 

Hi Gareth

This clutch saga drags on... I got the Audi back from mr clutch with what i think is a hefty bill £2.300, it seems they used parts from TPS, i phoned TPS & got it out of them he trade price which is 4 figs..ouch, when i drove away from the garage the vibration was still there & it was noisy dipping the clutch like a metallic sound & could smell gear oil, i got it to my works & phoned the RAC & when the guy came out he listened to the clutch & said its probably not fitted correctly & mentioning the Crankshaft play he dismissed this & said if it was bearings going it would be noisy & its ticking over sweet & must take the car back to them which i did & the guy put it up on ramp & said that its probably not the clutch but its 99% certain its the crank as there is 6m play & when in gear you can see the pully on the front go in & out he said it should be no more than 3m, I had to take the car away & got home next day the clutch was slipping under acceleration & still had the strong gear oil smell & then it went into limp mode I got it to Audi & as i know one of the staff he got a tech out to listen & said the crank shaft do not wear i said that it has 6m play but he did not check just listened & said its clutch installation is the problem, they printed out a diagnosis report & the was a catalogue of errors showing  he said that in fitting they have done something wrong & must take it back to mr clutch which i did, the car has been with them since last week & they said they will strip it out & put another new complete clutch in, i went there today & was told all the new clutch has arrived except a gearbox bearing where there was a small leak which i said so the oil has got on the clutch plate & he said no its dry, they need the car for 2/3 more days, but was unsure why it went into limp mode but will put it on their computer & set it back up, the guy said to me when its done if there are any scraping metallic problems then its the crankshaft moving from back to front, personally im dreading when i pick it up.  

[Magnet]

Hello Philip, 

I do indeed feel for you and the stress of the ongoing saga, and to be honest, I wonder if this saga is going to end favourably. 
Having said that, I’m rather confused why you entrusted this car to Mr. Clutch when cautionary advice was given, to allow you to benefit from the experience of others. Of course Philip, that’s now history and you can’t go backwards, and you must hang onto the hope that they know what they are doing. 

One point I would make - but would not want to excuse their actions - 6mm crankshaft end float is massive, and ‘no more than 3 mm’ as a limit, in my book would be excessive. Sorry to revert to old English, but even 3mm = 120 thou (of an inch) and personally I think a tenth of that would start to be concerning. Why did they go ahead with knowledge of a 6 mm end float?? If it is indeed 6mm then we are getting into the bounds of conrod misalignment and potential bore wear issues. 
Could it be that the flywheel is actually contacting the bell housing due to this forward movement of the crankshaft and flywheel?? - and that’s your noise. 

Perhaps you could keep us posted Philip. 
Kind regards,

Gareth. 

[Stagn8]

Very odd, this end float business, my 1975 Triumph Stag is maximum 0.28mm, ideally around 0.02mm I.e. nothing. Can’t understand a modern engine would have any play at all, it would create havoc with all the reciprocating parts. I think someone has got there wires crossed here.

[Phil jessop]

32 minutes ago, Stagn8 said:

Very odd, this end float business, my 1975 Triumph Stag is maximum 0.28mm, ideally around 0.02mm I.e. nothing. Can’t understand a modern engine would have any play at all, it would create havoc with all the reciprocating parts. I think someone has got there wires crossed here.

To be honest im totally baffled what the guy showed me in the garage, he put a bar behind the front pulley & it moved out a bit then he pushed it back & on the car ramp i was underneath the car viewing the shaft moving back & forth as small amount on acceleration, the garage guy said you should barely see any movement,I always thought there should be some movement, the car has only done 52000 carefull driving miles the audi tech guy & also the rac guy said if there was a problem you would hear engine noise on tick over & revving up & there is no noise the noise is when the clutch pedal is pressed down & up again like a metallic sound.

[Magnet]

Hello Philip,

Until it is established exactly what the degree of end float is here - and it should be in a small number thousands of an inch as Keith says - not in mm! (1mm = 40 thou.) then any work on this clutch will be repetitive and a waste of one heck of a lot of money and time, and could result in disaster. The quoted amount of end float is potentially engine destroying. 
If it were mine:- while it’s still in one piece and drivable (to some extent) I would be urgently booking this into Audi, or a trusted local independent, and getting the end float thoroughly investigated and a report issued. If there is indeed a serious amount of end float, then this would need attending to before (in caps)  any other clutch work. 

If indeed there is an out-of-tolerance end float then there is something adrift with the crankshaft thrust ‘washers’ (bearings), and I can’t tell you whether that requires an engine out operation, or whether the sump can come off with the engine in situ. 
This is where my attention would now be directed Philip. 
Perhaps you could keep us informed. 
Kind regards,

Gareth.

[Blacky13]

does this car have a harmonic balancer type crankshaft pulley and levering it back and forth moves it on the rubber insert which if perished would cause vibration?

[Stevey Y]

On 11/16/2021 at 7:34 PM, Phil jessop said:

Hi Gareth

This clutch saga drags on... I got the Audi back from mr clutch with what i think is a hefty bill £2.300, it seems they used parts from TPS, i phoned TPS & got it out of them he trade price which is 4 figs..ouch, when i drove away from the garage the vibration was still there & it was noisy dipping the clutch like a metallic sound & could smell gear oil, i got it to my works & phoned the RAC & when the guy came out he listened to the clutch & said its probably not fitted correctly & mentioning the Crankshaft play he dismissed this & said if it was bearings going it would be noisy & its ticking over sweet & must take the car back to them which i did & the guy put it up on ramp & said that its probably not the clutch but its 99% certain its the crank as there is 6m play & when in gear you can see the pully on the front go in & out he said it should be no more than 3m, I had to take the car away & got home next day the clutch was slipping under acceleration & still had the strong gear oil smell & then it went into limp mode I got it to Audi & as i know one of the staff he got a tech out to listen & said the crank shaft do not wear i said that it has 6m play but he did not check just listened & said its clutch installation is the problem, they printed out a diagnosis report & the was a catalogue of errors showing  he said that in fitting they have done something wrong & must take it back to mr clutch which i did, the car has been with them since last week & they said they will strip it out & put another new complete clutch in, i went there today & was told all the new clutch has arrived except a gearbox bearing where there was a small leak which i said so the oil has got on the clutch plate & he said no its dry, they need the car for 2/3 more days, but was unsure why it went into limp mode but will put it on their computer & set it back up, the guy said to me when its done if there are any scraping metallic problems then its the crankshaft moving from back to front, personally im dreading when i pick it up.  

Hi the oil is getting into the gearbox via the release bearing, the radial seal that goes in the back of the release bearing is sold separately and I wouldn't mind betting that they didn't change the release bearing outer seal, the only reason I know any of this was because I went through the same thing a couple of months ago, it was no fault of the garage I used just the pr@ts that supplied the clutch forgot to tell us about the extra seals because we didn't ask, as I said you can't trust Mr Crutch, I am still wondering what gearbox bearing they are going to change as I saw a lot of  the inside of my one and you can't get at any bearings without stripping the box down.

Steve                       .

Steve.

[Phil jessop]

35 minutes ago, Stevey Y said:

Hi the oil is getting into the gearbox via the release bearing, the radial seal that goes in the back of the release bearing is sold separately and I wouldn't mind betting that they didn't change the release bearing outer seal, the only reason I know any of this was because I went through the same thing a couple of months ago, it was no fault of the garage I used just the pr@ts that supplied the clutch forgot to tell us about the extra seals because we didn't ask, as I said you can't trust Mr Crutch, I am still wondering what gearbox bearing they are going to change as I saw a lot of  the inside of my one and you can't get at any bearings without stripping the box down.

Steve                       .

Steve.

 

[Stevey Y]

4 minutes ago, Phil jessop said:

 

Hi Phil you quoted my post and then no reply from your good self.

Steve.

[Phil jessop]

Just now, Phil jessop said:

 

Hi Steve, The car is still in the garage with the clutch stripped & they have got a new replacement to fit in, they said the oil was coming from the diff  & they took it off & got a local company to fit in 2 seals at mr clutch expense which i was told is £280, i have complained to them several times over this last week or more & they said they are short staffed so i sent a letter to their head office yesterday & got a reply today to say they have had to order a tool to check the crankshaft end float ? & they also said as the car had been remapped this too was contribute to excessive wear to the crankshaft float. god knows whats happening next, I just hope they ask me for them to repair the problem as im at my wits end now, im in the rac & considering having the car removed & taken to an audi garage instead. 

[Stevey Y]

26 minutes ago, Phil jessop said:

Hi Steve, The car is still in the garage with the clutch stripped & they have got a new replacement to fit in, they said the oil was coming from the diff  & they took it off & got a local company to fit in 2 seals at mr clutch expense which i was told is £280, i have complained to them several times over this last week or more & they said they are short staffed so i sent a letter to their head office yesterday & got a reply today to say they have had to order a tool to check the crankshaft end float ? & they also said as the car had been remapped this too was contribute to excessive wear to the crankshaft float. god knows whats happening next, I just hope they ask me for them to repair the problem as im at my wits end now, im in the rac & considering having the car removed & taken to an audi garage instead. 

Hi do not go to Audi unless you want to remortgage your house, the oil is not coming from the Diff its the N/S driveshaft seal where the driveshaft runs through the bell housing in to the Diff I know I replaced my seal when the box was out, if they don't renew the seal around the release bearing outer where it meets the bell housing and the radial seal that goes inside the release bearing, [marked in yellow] you are wasting your time. as for the end float I think they are passing the buck to try and smokescreen the fact they have buggered it up on a monumental scale.

Steve

[Phil jessop]

Thanks steve for the diagrams.. By looking at the yellow marked seal that's what was replaced as its on the left hand side of the gearbox that goes from the bellhousing to the diff he mentioned they replaced another seal too as a matter of course. 

[Stevey Y]

5 minutes ago, Phil jessop said:

Thanks steve for the diagrams.. By looking at the yellow marked seal that's what was replaced as its on the left hand side of the gearbox that goes from the bellhousing to the diff he mentioned they replaced another seal too as a matter of course. 

Hi both seals in the diagram are on the release bearing, the driveshaft seal is again separate but on another diagram I have but it made sense to rush out and buy one as the original had been on for just over 100k and was a bit crusty, all three seals were £30 from Audi.

Steve.

[Phil jessop]

On 11/17/2021 at 8:46 AM, Magnet said:

Hello Philip,

Until it is established exactly what the degree of end float is here - and it should be in a small number thousands of an inch as Keith says - not in mm! (1mm = 40 thou.) then any work on this clutch will be repetitive and a waste of one heck of a lot of money and time, and could result in disaster. The quoted amount of end float is potentially engine destroying. 
If it were mine:- while it’s still in one piece and drivable (to some extent) I would be urgently booking this into Audi, or a trusted local independent, and getting the end float thoroughly investigated and a report issued. If there is indeed a serious amount of end float, then this would need attending to before (in caps)  any other clutch work. 

If indeed there is an out-of-tolerance end float then there is something adrift with the crankshaft thrust ‘washers’ (bearings), and I can’t tell you whether that requires an engine out operation, or whether the sump can come off with the engine in situ. 
This is where my attention would now be directed Philip. 
Perhaps you could keep us informed. 
Kind regards,

Gareth.

Hi Gareth

At last mr clutch is putting the complete new clutch in my audi A4 they said they also had 2 oil seals done in the bellhousing that go to the diff as there was a leak, they have sent me an email stating that the problem is with the crankshaft end float as the starter plate is hitting the sandwich plate , they have sent me 3 videos of this, I would like you to view these so you can see for yourself if you could please, it would be easier to send by email if you are ok with this.

regards

phil

[Phil jessop]

My A4 has now been sold on.. the reason why..... When i got the car back from Mr clutch They said we have done all we can for you in replacing the new clutch with another under warranty & replaced the oil seals too & as the car was bought in in limp mode they have put that right too, they were still adamant about the end float on the crankshaft & said this is were your problems lies.. they got a measuring tool & videoed the end float & it was 6m & they could move the whole clutch flywheel in & out by hand & it was clanking i took the video into a garage that does audi.vw cars & showed the mechanic which he said was terrible & never seen anything like that amount of wear, they stopped repairing engines some years previous but said if i took to Audi main dealership they would only replace the engine which would be many thousands but if i could find someone who was capable of just repairing the bottom end that is if it was just the crankshaft & not anything more such as con rods or any other damage it would still cost up to £2000, anyway when i drove the car out of mr clutch it was terrible the clutch was banging on the sandwich plate the clutch was rather unresponsive & had to double the clutch to get the gears & the pedal was very soft. anyway enough is enough & we buy any car bought it as is for £13000, i know it was few 1000 less than the trade in price but i had to take the money & run as they say. my experience with mr clutch was disgusting to be honest & would never ever go to that branch again. I have now got a focus ST which is one year old with tiny mileage & loving it, I do love the audi cars but in the meantime i need to be free of problems. why i had all these problems which included new starter motor,thermostat & water pump, maybe this was all down to me getting the car remapped when i first bought it 3 years previous & the guy did not do the job properly..just a thought.

phil

[Stevey Y]

7 minutes ago, Phil jessop said:

My A4 has now been sold on.. the reason why..... When i got the car back from Mr clutch They said we have done all we can for you in replacing the new clutch with another under warranty & replaced the oil seals too & as the car was bought in in limp mode they have put that right too, they were still adamant about the end float on the crankshaft & said this is were your problems lies.. they got a measuring tool & videoed the end float & it was 6m & they could move the whole clutch flywheel in & out by hand & it was clanking i took the video into a garage that does audi.vw cars & showed the mechanic which he said was terrible & never seen anything like that amount of wear, they stopped repairing engines some years previous but said if i took to Audi main dealership they would only replace the engine which would be many thousands but if i could find someone who was capable of just repairing the bottom end that is if it was just the crankshaft & not anything more such as con rods or any other damage it would still cost up to £2000, anyway when i drove the car out of mr clutch it was terrible the clutch was banging on the sandwich plate the clutch was rather unresponsive & had to double the clutch to get the gears & the pedal was very soft. anyway enough is enough & we buy any car bought it as is for £13000, i know it was few 1000 less than the trade in price but i had to take the money & run as they say. my experience with mr clutch was disgusting to be honest & would never ever go to that branch again. I have now got a focus ST which is one year old with tiny mileage & loving it, I do love the audi cars but in the meantime i need to be free of problems. why i had all these problems which included new starter motor,thermostat & water pump, maybe this was all down to me getting the car remapped when i first bought it 3 years previous & the guy did not do the job properly..just a thought.

phil

Hi Phil Sorry to hear of your loss $$ but the moral of this story as with many others is if it aint broke don't fix it, I understand the obvious benefits of having the EGR mapped out as mine runs like a steam train when regenerating and the valve is jammed shut during that process, the thing you have to bear in mind is far finer minds than ours have developed these engines to run reliably with the given horsepower and that includes drive train components, as soon as you up the BHP It puts extra strain on the components and may cause premature failure of those components, last piece of advice, leave Mountune alone with your Focus and never darken the door of Mr Crutch again I learned the hard way as well, I wish you luck.

Steve.