Engine Coolant dropping

[Longbm]

Hi all, I have a 2016 plate A4 Avant, petrol. In October 2020, I noticed the engine coolant was below the minimum level. I had also noticed some engine overheating on long journeys (which was why I checked the coolant). I took it into the Audi dealership and under its 2 year warranty, they replaced the thermostat. In January this year, I noticed that the heating had stopped blowing out warm air (still blows cold air). I also checked the engine coolant and it had dropped again. I took it into the Audi dealership last week and they called me on Friday to advise that 1) they think that the coolant level dropping again was just due to an air pocket; 2) that the engine coolant (which they had replaced/topped up a year prior) was contaminated, and that “they think” that this may have blocked and/or broken the heater. Neither of these are covered under warranty. Has anyone had a similar issue and if so, what did it turn out to be? I am worried that the engine coolant dropping is a bigger issue. Thanks.

[Magnet]

Hello Mark,

Thanks for being in touch. 
OK, I understand what thy are saying, and also your concerns. 
Simple logic going forward:- 

Either there is still an actual coolant leak, or the drop in coolant level is indeed due to an (now extinguished) air lock. 
I take it they have now topped this up to the correct level ( if not, you will need to), so you can now monitor if the coolant drops again in the air-free system. If it does drop, then you/they still have a problem, if it doesn’t, you then only have the heater situation to worry about. I would concentrate on just worrying about one thing at a time. 
Heater issue:- there have been reports that bags of ‘solids’ they put in the header tanks rupture and eventually block the heater core. Worth searching this out for reference. 
Perhaps you could keep us informed on how things go.

Kind regards,

Gareth. 

[Longbm]

Thank you Gareth. So if I take the Audi dealership at face value on the coolant level (I will continue to monitor), the position that I am currently in, is that they are simply telling me that the coolant is ‘contaminated’ and that they believe it may have damaged the heating system. They are advising that this isn’t covered under warranty (as it’s not mechanical failure — the ‘contaminant’ has blocked/damaged the heater, so any damage is consequential) and that I need to pay for the system to be flushed and then potentially (if that doesn’t fix it) a new heating system.

Given what I have just read following your tip, it sounds like it’s more than possible that its the silica bag breaking and damaging the system. If that’s the case, it absolutely sounds like it should be covered under warranty. Can you offer any advice on how should I proceed with Audi/the dealership please? How could I ascertain if it is indeed the silica bag that has caused the damage? I am really at a loss as to how to proceed, as it feels incredibly unfair to have a car that is under warranty with a broken heating system and to be told that I have to cover the costs of the repair which could be £000’s. Thank you again for your support.

[Magnet]

Hello Mark,

Thanks for coming back on this. I really think you should be boiling this down into the two problems, and first attempting to evaluate whether the coolant loss is real, or due to an air lock.

I say this, since if the car is continuing to lose coolant, then this can be a far more significant problem than the heater issue. Personally, at this point in time, I would not be discussing the heater issue resolution with them, since any debate on the validity of the warranty is likely to lead to differences of opinion. If you still have a loss of coolant, which needs to be dealt with, then any prior ‘differences of opinion’ may colour your situation going forward. 
That’s my logic, but appreciate your may be different. 

If this were mine:- I would be topping up the header tank - after standing over night - to the max. line, and using the car on as many long journeys as you can, as soon as you can, to cover say 200 miles. Again leave the car to stand overnight, and recheck the coolant level. 
Do your homework on the potential silica gel bag issue, so that you are correctly armed with the knowledge you need when ( in caps ) you will need to talk about this issue. 
Kind regards,

Gareth. 

[geoffrey]

this issue reminds me of a problem i had many years ago.

apparent coolant loss and heater not working.

long story short.

coolant had been contaminated with a different coolant .

resulted in a oil/water situation ie one coolant floating on top of the other and not mixing.

complete flush and filling up with correct fluid fixed it for me

particular attention was paid to the heavy coolant to make sure it was cleared from the bottom of the engine.

i am at a loss as to why silica gel crystals are involved in a cooling system, maybe the coolant is not H2O based ? that would make some sort of sense.

Regards Ken

[Longbm]

1 hour ago, geoffrey said:

this issue reminds me of a problem i had many years ago.

apparent coolant loss and heater not working.

long story short.

coolant had been contaminated with a different coolant .

resulted in a oil/water situation ie one coolant floating on top of the other and not mixing.

complete flush and filling up with correct fluid fixed it for me

particular attention was paid to the heavy coolant to make sure it was cleared from the bottom of the engine.

i am at a loss as to why silica gel crystals are involved in a cooling system, maybe the coolant is not H2O based ? that would make some sort of sense.

Regards Ken

Thank you Ken. That would make a lot of sense, as the Audi dealership added coolant when I had the thermostat replaced in October 2020. I hope that is the issue, as that would suggest that the the heating matrix won’t be damaged. Hopefully Audi will come back to me to confirm that that will cover the cost of the coolant flush/replacement and that will fix the issue. If unfortunately it turns out to be the silica gel issue, then it’ll likely be a damaged heating matrix and a more costly job (which I will still push Audi to cover under the warranty, as that would be a failure of that part). As it stands, they are maintaining that it is a dirty engine coolant container that is the issue (rather than the coolant itself), which just makes no sense to me. Will wait to see what Audi say. Thanks again for your help diagnosing the issue. 

[Longbm]

1 hour ago, Magnet said:

Hello Mark,

Thanks for coming back on this. I really think you should be boiling this down into the two problems, and first attempting to evaluate whether the coolant loss is real, or due to an air lock.

I say this, since if the car is continuing to lose coolant, then this can be a far more significant problem than the heater issue. Personally, at this point in time, I would not be discussing the heater issue resolution with them, since any debate on the validity of the warranty is likely to lead to differences of opinion. If you still have a loss of coolant, which needs to be dealt with, then any prior ‘differences of opinion’ may colour your situation going forward. 
That’s my logic, but appreciate your may be different. 

If this were mine:- I would be topping up the header tank - after standing over night - to the max. line, and using the car on as many long journeys as you can, as soon as you can, to cover say 200 miles. Again leave the car to stand overnight, and recheck the coolant level. 
Do your homework on the potential silica gel bag issue, so that you are correctly armed with the knowledge you need when ( in caps ) you will need to talk about this issue. 
Kind regards,

Gareth. 

Thanks Gareth. The Audi dealership have reassured me that they have thoroughly checked for any further coolant leakage, either externally or into the engine. They explained that this is one of the key things that they check for. However, I will indeed take your advice and monitor it myself over the coming weeks, as my used warranty expires in June, so if there are any more serious issues, I’d like to identify them before then. Thanks again, Mark. 

[Magnet]

Hello Ken,

Many thanks for the input.

Could I ask how long ago your incident happened, since in the days when I had hair, all antifreeze was then glycol based. OAT  coolant then replaced this with new vehicles, and did not mix with the earlier antifreeze. 
Personally, I cannot see that the coolant in Mark’s car has become contaminated unless he has indeed added coolant - of the wrong type - have you added any coolant since you bought the car Mark? Did you buy the car from an Audi dealer? 
Kind regards,

Gareth. 

[Longbm]

2 minutes ago, Magnet said:

Hello Ken,

Many thanks for the input.

Could I ask how long ago your incident happened, since in the days when I had hair, all antifreeze was then glycol based. OAT  coolant then replaced this with new vehicles, and did not mix with the earlier antifreeze. 
Personally, I cannot see that the coolant in Mark’s car has become contaminated unless he has indeed added coolant - of the wrong type - have you added any coolant since you bought the car Mark? Did you buy the car from an Audi dealer? 
Kind regards,

Gareth. 

 Hi Gareth, yes I bought the car from an Audi dealership about a year and a half ago with an Audi two year warranty. Then in October 2020 when the thermostat was replaced due to the coolant level being low, the Audi dealership who carried out the repair added coolant. I have not personally added any coolant to the car since I’ve had it.

When I collected the car earlier today (still with the heating not working) the dealership slightly changed their story, and told me that the coolant itself isn’t contaminated it is the coolant holder in the car which is “dirty“. They believe it is this that has potentially blocked the heating. But unless I agree to pay £800 to have the coolant system flushed out they won’t know for sure what the issue is. The problem I have is the car is still under warranty and I don’t feel like I should be having to pay £800 to flush the coolant when we don’t even know that that is the issue. The only thing that they have now been able to confirm is that they think the coolant holder is a little bit dirty.
 

As it is a warranty issue, I called the warranty company to talk about their decision to not cover this (as the dealership are pushing the blame/decision onto them), and they suggested I call Audi UK customer services to raise it. I did that so I will wait to see what they say. It all seems a little bit silly to me, as I feel the dealership should really do what is necessary to diagnose the problem before asking me to pay any money, especially when the car is under warranty. 

[geoffrey]

Hi Gareth,

 it was indeed a long time ago, when i also had hair.

Regards Ken

 

[Magnet]

Hello Mark,

So we have now established that if (in caps) the coolant is contaminated, then it could only have been contaminated via. an Audi dealership - I.e. you can rightfully claim that that has been outside your influence or control. 
So the header tank is dirty. OK, and they really want £800 ‘of somebody’s money’ to flush and refill the coolant system - really?? It might be worth you asking Audi U.K. to give you the scheduled labour time for this operation, so that you are armed with a greater knowledge of how this figure is arrived at. 
Have a look in your handbook for the coolant capacity, divide it by two (50/50 mix) to establish the correct quantity of coolant which will be needed to refill the system, and price this at (another) Audi dealer. You will then be able to better judge if the figures add up. 
My gut feeling is that this issue is due to the demise of Audi’s bag, and you might benefit from searching the forum and establishing contact with others who have been affected by this, to see how they were finally treated. 
Kind regards,

Gareth.

[Longbm]

On 3/29/2022 at 3:06 PM, Magnet said:

Hello Mark,

So we have now established that if (in caps) the coolant is contaminated, then it could only have been contaminated via. an Audi dealership - I.e. you can rightfully claim that that has been outside your influence or control. 
So the header tank is dirty. OK, and they really want £800 ‘of somebody’s money’ to flush and refill the coolant system - really?? It might be worth you asking Audi U.K. to give you the scheduled labour time for this operation, so that you are armed with a greater knowledge of how this figure is arrived at. 
Have a look in your handbook for the coolant capacity, divide it by two (50/50 mix) to establish the correct quantity of coolant which will be needed to refill the system, and price this at (another) Audi dealer. You will then be able to better judge if the figures add up. 
My gut feeling is that this issue is due to the demise of Audi’s bag, and you might benefit from searching the forum and establishing contact with others who have been affected by this, to see how they were finally treated. 
Kind regards,

Gareth.

Thank you Gareth. I have spoken with Audi UK this morning and they have affectively said there is nothing that they can do. The report from the Audi dealership states that the issue (they now believe) is a “contaminated coolant container”.
 

As I pointed out to them it is not an area of the car that is ever been touched by anyone who operates outside of the Audi brand, it was actually touched in October 2020 by the Audi dealership in question, so if contamination is the issue, then the most likely contaminant would be that job. How else do you get a dirty coolant container unless there’s a fault? My biggest annoyance here is that they don’t even know that that is the issue, that is their theory currently, but they want me to pay £800 to test their hypothesis.
 

Audi UK are comfortable that I should be playing for what they call “additional exploratory work” even though the car is under warranty. My view is that the heating isn’t working and they need to do what is required to ascertain what the issue is (especially given their prior dealing with this particular part of the car). When they find the issue, if it’s covered under warranty they pay, if it isn’t then I pay. The fact nobody can tell me what the issue is, but only that they want me to pay £800 to find out, is incredibly frustrating. 
 

Anyway, top and bottom of it from Audi UK is that they won’t help me and that they have told me to contact the motor ombudsman if I’m not happy. I’m considering taking the car to a trusted independent garage to investigate (remove the silica bag and check it). They will also likely charge significantly less for the required coolant flush. What are your thoughts? 

[Magnet]

Thanks Mark, 

I think your last route is probably the most practical, unless you want to get into Small Claims Court cases with the dealer and/or Audi U.K. If you did want to do that, then you would obviously need to ‘invest’ in qualified and professional reports and representation at court. 
Of course, the ‘contaminated’ coolant possibility, is indeed just that, and the heater core may not be blocked/partially blocked as a result, and the non functional heater may be a heater control malfunction. 
I would check the small print of the warranty ( who’s warranty is it?) before deciding anything, since they - not the Audi dealer, or Audi U.K. - are the deciders of what is covered or not. 
Kind regards,

Gareth.