Alternator failure related to mild hybrid system?

[Mark2]

David,I too have been in touch with the DVSA and have sent them the following today:

Dear Lucy,

Thank you for your email, I do hope you can forward this to one of your senior Motor Engineers for further investigation. I am aware that DVSA have carried out a preliminary investigation ref 43989 but I feel this lacked serious probing and DVSA appear to have been fobbed off by Audi, who appear to be wanting to sweep this under the carpet.  I am attaching the letter I sent to Audi which describes the incident I experience, which has been mirrored by numerous other Audi owners, but I am using your findings in 43989 and addressing those as they need to be probed into.

THE MANUFACTURER ADVISES THEY HAVE NO RECORD OF SIMILAR OUTCOMES

This statement is untrue. Audi UK have had numerous complaints; however, these complaints are listed by Audi Executive Office as Electrical Issues. They do not break this down into 48/12v Mild Hybrid or alternator issues. So, when you ask for information on a specific topic, they can say they have no records.

In March 2024 my local Audi Dealer had repaired 3 vehicles with this alternator failure. There are 1500 VW/Audi dealers in the UK, if they all had the similar number of complaints then this would amount to 4500 vehicles, not an insignificant number.

THEY ARE NOT AWARE OF ANY VEHICLE COMING TO AN IMMEDIATE STOP

To be fair the vehicle takes about 30 seconds to come to a stop. Various electrical circuits shut down but the driver has no idea what is going on or why. Just that certain things like electric windows and aircon stop working.

They say there are a variety of warning messages. However, these warning messages do not tell the driver that the battery is no longer being charged, there are warning messages that the battery has a fault and you should contact the dealer. The problem here is that the car is very power hungry using 12v for everything from lights to operating the gearbox, seats, aircon, etc with no charge going to it, it is not long before there is a catastrophic failure when the driver and his passengers become trapped in an inert vehicle.  As you will see from my attached note to Audi there is nothing to tell the driver he is heading into an electrical abyss.

When I challenged Audi as to why there was not a ‘battery not being charged’ warning light they told me this was no longer an EU Vehicle Build Standards requirement!

LOCKED DOORS

If you have operated the Child lock button on the doors, as you would if you regularly travel with children, then when the 12v power dies there is no way to release this and the doors CANNOT be opened from the inside or the outside. Nor can the tail gate door be released to either remove rear passengers or access the warning triangle. This is the most serious system failure. Nor can the parking brake be operated allowing the driver to exit the vehicle.

THE REAL ISSUE

This is not about a component failure such as the alternator as vehicle components fail all the time and are repaired or replaced. This is about the lack on due diligence by Audi in their design of this 48/12v hybrid system. What Risk Assessment did Audi do in their design of their electrical warning system? Did they consider that failure of the 12v  system could immobilise the vehicle with very little warning and put driver and passengers’ safety at risk?

What are Audi going to do about changing the system software so that better warnings are given, as suggested in my attached letter?

 

 

 

[DADSQ7]

Hi, quick update. So… ours isn’t the alternator… it’s the battery. No warranty cover for the battery, so a bill of £2800 if they can find one… 

To be fair, the latest chap has been excellent. I will be looking for some goodwill from Audi UK, but other than that we’ll get it back and then wait for the alternator to go wrong at some point I guess. 
 

I will be checking that the alternator is still the original one once I get it back, just to check there’s no funny business going on though.

[DADSQ7]

Oh, and in reference to Mark2’s post. Ours has now got error codes for the rear child locks following the battery failure. We are hoping they clear properly with the new battery. 

[RKaur]

23 hours ago, DADSQ7 said:

Hi, yes, we’ve considered that. However I seem to have a sensible person talking to me now. Taken 2 weeks but he’s listening to me instead of treating me like a numb skull. I have provided the bulletin kindly posted further back on n the thread dated 27 June, and he’s toddled off to investigate. He did then empathise with how it looked, based on the information we have. 
 

The PR code of 9G8 is key. If this is included on the build sticker in the  boot, or the one on the inside cover of the owners manual, and it’s the alternator that has failed (confirmed by diagnostics) then I don’t think there much argument really now. Ours has this. My debate is whether the battery has gone too, and then if the battery was killed by the alternator (which is highly probable). My beef is now that they needed me to indemnify them to guess by a parts swap with another car… 

We’ll see soon enough. 

You legend! We’ve struggled with Audi to get them to share the original part number but the above enabled me to go looking and find it in 30 seconds. Not sharing it is raising questions our end, despite us having our car back in our possession. 
 

[Audi Death Trap]

Mark, there are some well thought out comments and questions in your correspondence with the DVSA. When I read their reply to me it came as a great shock to effectively be accused of lying and that none of my experiences could theoretically happen. Three operatives from BDV Breakdown and many hundreds of commuters witnessed me trapped and recovered inside the car and driven away with no hazard warning lights. The breakdown company have now agreed to pay the cost of damage to the steering arm when they hauled my car onto the flatbed. Ultimately the vehicle only broke down as a result of the alternator manufacturing defect so I believe Audi should be liable for this as well. The Hull Audi warranty manager and service manager are supposedly coming back to me by the end of the week with some kind of additional resolution. Given that Audi Executive office won't entertain me because I asked for legal advice I don't expect to be given anything. The fact they threw Hull Audi under the bus will result in £OOOO Vuckall durch Technic for me.

[Mark2]

Hi David, I am not convinced this is an alternator manufacturing fault as Audi appear to be replacing like for like. My personal opinion is that this starter/generator is being asked to do too much- acting as an alternator one minute and a starter the next. If my hypothesis is right then most failures will be from vehicles who regularly are in stop/start traffic. Either way it does not let Audi off the hook from not having a sensible warning.

glad to hear you are getting some of your claim sorted 

[Audi Death Trap]

Hi Mark, I've never been keen on the idea of a start/stop system and made sure before I bought the car it was possible to deactivate the system. I've owned the A8 for one year and have religiously turned the start/stop off at the beginning of every journey. Unfortunately I don't know what the previous owner did for the first four years or whether the alternator has already been replaced at some point.

[Mark2]

I have had a very speedy response from DVSA which I have copied in below, together with my reply. However it is clear that DVSA need to see more evidence of 48v/12v system failures so i will ask everyone you has contributed to email  john.corcoran@dvsa.gov.uk

Mr Hayward

 

Thank you for your email and we note your comments.

 

I’m not able to discuss the case referenced but can advise DVSA investigates safety defects within the terms of the Code of Practice on Vehicle Safety Defects (the Code), which has the support of the General Product Safety Regulations 2005 (as amended).

 

This can be accessed at

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/code-of-practice-on-vehicle-safety-defects-and-recalls/vehicle-safety-defects-and-recalls-code-of-practice

 

When investigating an allegation of a safety defect DVSA considers any warnings and the immediate impact the defect may have on occupants and the driver’s ability to control the vehicle, bring it to a halt etc.

 

Whereas DVSA has not yet determined a safety defect as defined by the Code, its Market Surveillance Unit continues to monitor reports to collate any additional evidence, and I have added your report to our investigation file.

 

I note your comments on warnings displayed and recommendations.

 

Vehicles sold in the UK must either have European whole vehicle type approval (EWVTA) or certain other recognised approvals. Our understanding is this vehicle fully meets EWVTA and requirements for the UK.

 

However, vehicle type approval is the responsibility of the Vehicle Certification Agency (VCA) and you may wish to address your concerns on this to them. Their web site address is

 

Homepage - Vehicle Certification Agency (vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk)

 

 

Thank you

Dear Mr Corcoran,

Thank you for your speedy response.

As much as I understand you are unable to discuss the case I highlighted, it would appear that my experience was a mirror image of that case. From my professional life my understanding is once an electronic system is commissioned its software and firmware will act in exactly the same way for all items so produced,  everyone who has Audi cars with this fault will experience the same life threatening failure scenario.

 

I have looked at the Code of Practice and  note that DVSA has responsibilities to monitor and investigate issues that affect automotive product safety. Then it is your responsibility to identify potential safety issues and work with the manufactures to rectify such defects. So far so good you are the organisation to look into the defects highlighted by myself and others.

 

However from what you say , so far you have been unable to identify my experience and the experience of others as a ‘safety defect’. Could you please explain how being trapped in an inert vehicle, which could become involved in a shunt or catch fire is NOT a safety defect?

 

If you accept my argument above that once an electronic system has been commissioned then all systems will act in the same way then your being advised of one failure surely will mean that all systems [48v/12 hybrids] will suffer the same failure mode.

 

I note your action is to add my observations to your file. How many similar observations do your need before you act?

Do you need someone to be killed on a smart motorway, unable to exit their Audi before you take action?

 

I will try to get all the people I know who have experience the same safety issue as me to write to you.

 

In the meantime I await your response to my questions.

Rgds

 

Mark Hayward

[Audi Death Trap]

There are other forums with owners discussing the exact same problems many in the USA. I've followed loads of threads since my breakdown. Trying to get others to contact the DVSA would be no small feat. Most Audi drivers probably get recovered, pay the bill, maybe get a gesture of goodwill or even maybe get a warranty payout then go on their way giving it no further thought. The only ones incensed enough to get as far as the DVSA will be those who truly had their lives put on the line. Since these component failures have been occurring for years now it's absurd the DVSA only have a limited number of reports.

Edited August 8 by Audi Death Trap

[Mark2]

Unfortunately you are right. The longer this goes on and vehicles drop out of warranty then users will just accept a failure as an older vehicle problem, and Audi will have dodged the bullet. What is so annoying is we have a public body who is there at our expense to safeguard the public sitting on their hands just moving the problem off their desk and into a filing cabinet. If I do not get a positive response from mr Corcoran then next step my MP.

[Audi Death Trap]

I broke down here in narrow lanes between concrete blocks running for hundreds of yards with no escape route.

[Cally]

On 7/23/2024 at 3:18 PM, Audi Death Trap said:

 

I completed a dangerous vehicle log with the DVSA and had a very disappointing response. I challenged the outcome and my correspondence was ignored. I contacted the DVSA (VSB) by telephone requesting to speak to the individual who had reviewed my case and was told telephone contact was not possible!

 

[Mark2]

Cally, pls send your story to mr Corcoran as I am going to pursue this as they are the Govt Agency who is there for us.

[Audi Death Trap]

Part of my alternator replacement cost was covered by a third party warranty. Having been thrown under the bus Audi Hull have now agreed to pay the shortfall. They told me this would not have been possible if it wasn't for my own warranty as they couldn't have footed the entire bill. The service manager informed me that they would be unable to recover the cost from Audi UK without returning the original failed part which they no longer have. I don't imagine for one minute Audi UK are trying to make all evidence disappear. The service manager also agreed the likely sequence of electrical failures would be exactly how I'd described it to the DVSA.

[Mark2]

I have now written to my MP asking why the DVSA who are there to uphold vehicle safety are only interested in filing any issues?

[Cally]

On 8/9/2024 at 10:21 AM, Mark2 said:

Cally, pls send your story to mr Corcoran as I am going to pursue this as they are the Govt Agency who is there for us.

Hi Mark,

My apologies if I have missed contact details for Mr Corcoran, could you please point me in the right direction.

Many thanks,

Cally

[Mark2]

Just scroll up and you will find my post from Thursday this week with his email address

[RSPeter]

My 2020 RS6 came up shiwungbin yellow, electrical fault, steering fault and transmission fault but said safe to drive, i booked it into audi which was couple weeks later before first available slot, didnt use car until day it was booked in, started it yellow code still showing started to drive it , code changed to red car stopped quickly and shut down, battery was dead so to speed things up i bought new battery and fitted to get to dealer, They checked it and confirmed alternator failure , id taken out audi extended warranty, i was told not covered by warranty as the car had had a remap two and half years ago and that alternator failure was due to remap making alternator run hotter than normal so bring charged £2100, then i google audi alt failure and find its common fault, Not Happy

[RSPeter]

Sorry about predictive text mis spelling on my post

[Audi Death Trap]

Hi Peter, sorry to hear you've succumbed to the same problem we've all had on here. I would suggest liaising with Audi Executive Office for a goodwill gesture if the terms of the extended warranty have been broken. You could report the issue to the DVSA like I have but in your case there is no blatant safety risk so unfortunately you probably won't get very far. https://contact-dvsa.service.gov.uk/report-vehicle-safety-defect/ 

[Audi Death Trap]

This is the latest summary I received from the DVSA this morning after I provided additional information to my original complaint.

 

It is probable all types and makes of vehicles will, at some time, experience a mechanical or electrical component failure. These, by their nature can be unpredictable as can the site/location where it may occur. Therefore, DVSA considers the immediate impact any safety related issue may have on the vehicle in to determine if it is a safety defect as defined by the Code.

 

Our understanding is the vehicle has two-stage warnings, both of which are visual and acoustic, and the vehicle fully meets type approval requirements.

 

Initially the 12V supply should support secondary systems (including lighting and steering) allowing the vehicle to carry forward, slow down and be brought to a halt. Lighting, inc. hazard lights etc., should be still active at time of incident and ‘emergency call’ available. However, as with any vehicle, (ICE, Hybrid etc) if charging has been interrupted the battery will deplete over time, and, depending on usage, certain systems may not fully function.

[Audi Death Trap]

"Certain systems may not fully function."

Great if you want to deploy your hazard lights and actually evacuate your vehicle before you get rammed or go up in flames.

 

[Mark2]

They are missing the point, either deliberately or they are thick.

can they tell users what the 2 stage warnings are that make this situation Code compliant?

[DADSQ7]

On 8/7/2024 at 4:12 PM, DADSQ7 said:

Hi, quick update. So… ours isn’t the alternator… it’s the battery. No warranty cover for the battery, so a bill of £2800 if they can find one… 

To be fair, the latest chap has been excellent. I will be looking for some goodwill from Audi UK, but other than that we’ll get it back and then wait for the alternator to go wrong at some point I guess. 
 

I will be checking that the alternator is still the original one once I get it back, just to check there’s no funny business going on though.

Good afternoon fellow frustrated Audi owners! 

soooo, had battery replaced. Paid £2,820, and drove away yesterday. 

Audi UK didn’t come through in time for any recompense, as they keep trying to get Leicester to take the hit. On this point I squarely blame Audi UK. Why would the franchisee take the hit??? Not that the dealership has come away with any credit from this sorry state of affairs. 

Anyway, less than 24 hours on, IT’S BACK AT LEICESTER. What a !Removed! surprise! My dad had a very firm conversation with them yesterday, before we drove away, to ask why the hell Leicester would let him drive away in a car with a known fault, and asked if they at all cared about the safety of him and my mum, or is this just money led. It’s quite apparent it all money driven, with no regard to safety.

Right on cue, this morning the battery light comes on. He drives it straight there before the inevitable occurs. 

So, £2,820 down and no car for 4 weeks, no courtesy car, and still Leicester and Audi UK put money ahead of safety. Leicester have now said they’ll get an alternator!!! Good luck finding one. It’s all a cover up, and a money loss mitigation decision by lawyers in the UK. USA has responded appropriately, and I guess that decision sucks all the alternators from the world stocks. 

I am told the battery shuts down if the message from the alternator goes awry. So the new battery should be ok. Great! 👍 

So, in summary, I told them what was wrong 4 weeks ago as the AA diagnosed it. I tried to tell them there was this warranty extension. It took 3 weeks before they decided to check, as I sent them the internal notice kindly posted in this thread. Then it’s been nothing but waffle. I can only conclude that Audi UK must be in some sort of financial difficulty to not just sort this. They then diagnose the battery after doing a swap out from another car, charge us for the pleasure, and declare it mended as for five minutes the car worked ok. I told them the battery was clearly dead due to the alternator (which is known to be faulty), but oh no, they “have” to follow what Audi UK tell them. Logic doesn’t seem to be in abundance anymore!!  

I really would like to join the communications to the various places you have all reported this to. 

Is there any traction with media? BBC, etc. if there’s any current reference or contacts, let me know. 

As for DVSA etc. happy to chip in, but like any government agency, they don’t have the teeth, funds nor inclination to stand up to a global company like Audi. No different to water regulators… 

The only way is media coverage, reviews, reputation and walking away from the brand ultimately. 

Share price is the only real measure of success for these companies. Headlines tend to focus the minds of execs and investors alike.

TBC…. 

[Audi Death Trap]

Despite VW Audi Dieselgate I can't get any media outlet to take this up. I'd like to find out some breakdown statistics from the AA or RAC given these cars are doomed to failure. I expect my own breakdown premium will go up next year just to rub a little more salt in the wound. Once again reporting to DVSA won't work if there is no blatant safety aspect involved.