Alternator failure related to mild hybrid system?

[RSW]

Thanks for sharing the update and sorry to hear they haven't been more helpful - sadly not hugely surprised. Was hoping they would clarify whether the root causes are understood and can be permanently rectified via new parts/software fixes.

Sounds like they are taking the fix it (but like for like) when it breaks approach by extending warranties. I imagine they will simply be increasing inventory on these parts and clawing back something from component suppliers as well. Ultimately they are leaving customers to endure the hassle and worry when it does happen.

Completely agree they should be giving customers an advisory on what to do when a flurry of electrical system warning signals start appearing given that that the shut down is simply dangerous.

I only hope someone who doesn't know what to do like you doesn't get caught out and hurt as result of being stranded in fast moving traffic. Let's hope the US class action invokes something a bit more customer orientated, won't be holding my breath though.

Hope the issue doesn't rear its head for you again. RS6 C8 is a an amazing car, can't believe it and others sharing this BSG MHEV system have such a dreadful design flaw ticking away outcome wise, a serious lack of design redundancy/warning given the impact it has when it fails.

Have decided to start looking at M3 touring, but checking it doesn't have a similar Mild Hybrid set up (seems Merc E63s wagon equiv now does) . . . I should have gone with one of the last C7s, same performance give or take but minus the MHEV nonsense. 

[RSW]

Ironic that emissions regs dictated the need for the mild hybrid system from a number of these manufacturers on their performance cars, yet safety regs haven't caught up with the customer protections needed to safeguard against  implications of poor manufacturer design/implementation of these systems. The Nissan approach on the GTR to a number of the sound and emissions regs was probably cleaner - just stop shipping in Europe!

[Mark2]

My last RS6 was 17 years old and I had done 235000 miles in it but my garage could no longer get suspension spares so I sold it and bought a new one- more fool me. I do need to tow and the C8 is at least homologated. However do not think that will do 235,000 miles. Still awaiting Audi GmbH response so will keep you updated. Trying to claw back the £235 tow charge!

[RSW]

Now that's some mileage - impressive, I can't imagine many of today's vehicles doing that. Good luck with the £235, least they can do!!

[Mark2]

Audi told me it was the highest mileage RS product they had. No major problems. Only once when cam chains broke did I need recovery. Has it chipped at 10,000 miles to 500bhp. Some wag on the RS246 site worked out how much fuel I had used and what it cost but he did not know how many smiles.

[Mark2]

I have just had a call from Audi UK flooding my complaint through my dealer. They have agreed to pay the recovery charge of £330 I incurred getting a local garage out if hours to patch in a replacement battery to get me to their garage and out of danger.

Then Audi UK told me the most extraordinary thing. Firstly there are no plans for Audi to issue a software update to warn drivers of this problem but secondly. NO AUDI CARS HAVE A ‘ BATTERY NOT BEING CHARGED’ WARNING,!

I find this hard to believe. 

Does anyone have a newish Audi with a No Charge warning lamp fitted ?

 

[Mark2]

Audi UK have told me that they do not have any alternator failure or battery not being charged warning lights on any of their current models. I cannot believe this, can anyone confirm if they have a 3 year or less old car if it had an alternator failure warning light

[RSW]

Seems like this is part of the issue, the emission regs that in part have led to manufacturers introducing systems like the 48/12V MHEV aren't matched by safety regs that consider the risk of poor implementations - lack of redundancy, driver warning etc in the event off failure, especially given the way this one unfolds consequences wise. I suspect that there will be broader pieces of existing legislation region by region that cover a manufacturers duty of care if they become aware of an issue that has significant - albeit unintended- safety consequences. Plausible that this is in part what the US Class Action case will push on. Either way it's not great that Audi seem to be prepared to let customers spin the wheel! Having read some of the examples behind the US litigation they are pretty unpleasant, cars effectively becoming bricked after 10-20 mins with not even enough charge to operate hazard lights. @Mark2 glad to hear they paid your tow fees, least they could do. Perhaps this is one to push to Which or one of the other UK consumer rights programmes like watchdog to put a a bit more of a sense of urgency into Audi on at least a warning feature. Nothing galvanises corp responses like a spot on Watchdog! 

Edited February 25 by RSW
grammar

[RSW]

Thanks J. Clear that what happens legally in the US won’t apply in the UK.
 

How it plays out however may galvanise some in the UK who experience this issue to take a legal course of action. Whether that’s wise/likely to be successful or not etc in soliciting development of a suitable proactive fix and or warning feature is another matter.

Not accepting liability as no default has occurred wasn’t what I was pushing on exactly. I guess if I am a little more precise what I meant was that it appears current legislation in the UK in this area doesn’t yet reflect consideration of the potential safety risks of the 48/12v MHEV system, its implementation, safeguards in the event of failure etc. Not unusual to see legislation trail technology developments I guess. 

Either way this is a potentially dangerous issue on these vehicles and it appears (though I don’t claim to have trawled the applicable statutes and language) that it is not accounted for in existing statutes and their underpinning primary / secondary legislation.

The fact that a company isn’t currently legally obliged to  address this issue, doesn’t mean that on balance -when becoming aware of the potential consequences- that it shouldn’t. Wishful thinking on that point I guess. 

Hypothetically speaking, perhaps a successful UK case that highlights the safety risks in the event of failure would help address what looks to be a gap in existing statutes. I have no idea if that would end up being addressed in some secondary legislation -regulation, order- made under the authority of the appropriate Act. I respectfully defer to those legally trained and qualified on all that! 

Better still a decent bit of journalistic investigation and air time on something like watchdog might nudge the manufacturer into a moment of customer orientated care and action. May be wishful thinking again. . .

 

[RSW]

Of course.

Suspect it would be relatively straight forward to source examples of this failure which would go some way to moving such an investigation safely away from unsupported hypothesis.

Also such an investigation wouldn’t  need to draw conclusions (their lawyers would be all over what could/couldn't be said etc), it would simply need to point to example cases and put reasonable questions to the manufacturer in the public domain that push on the issue. That’s broadly the nature of such consumer watchdog investigations from what I have seen over the years. 

You seem very keen to highlight the legal dimensions here, when that’s not the only way to solicit a more customer orientated response from the manufacturer for those impacted by this particular issue.  

Wondering if you work in said manufacturers PR/legal dep. 

Either way thanks for your legal points - no further guidance required. 

 

Edited February 25 by RSW
Corrections

[RSW]

Fair enough Jason.  Thanks for the points, they are all clear and I understand them given that the manufacturer will certainly take a very considered legal position on any questions or responses to any consumer watchdog like investigation. 

My only hope is that something sensible is done before such a failure puts someone in harms way. 

[JASENRS6]

Hi Everyone

I have this problem on my 2023 RS6 Vorsprung, i have had the car remaped and its only done 1600 miles and this problem has occurred this week, the audi dealership has
said its not covered under Warranty because of the remap, has any one else had there warranty refused or voided because of a remap?

the cost is £3k to fix this, its so annoying as there is loads of forums on here regarding this problem what should be classed as a recal

Please help any advice would be great

J

[JASENRS6]

Hi Everyone

I have this problem on my 2023 RS6 Vorsprung, i have had the car remaped and its only done 1600 miles and this problem has occurred this week, the audi dealership has
said its not covered under Warranty because of the remap, has any one else had there warranty refused or voided because of a remap?

the cost is £3k to fix this, its so annoying as there is loads of forums on here regarding this problem what should be classed as a recal

Please help any advice would be great

J

[ASHAH12]

It should be covered abd the remap has nothing to do with the failure of the alternator. Did you tell them your vehicle was remapped? I would suggest you go back let them know that UK Audi now cover this under an extended 7 year warranty and unlimited mileage. If they still say no then I would escalate this to UK Audi and then follow small claims court. The remap has nothing to do with the alternator failure. Its a defect on that part.

[RSW]

Sorry to hear about that JASENRS6. Agree with ASHA12, remapping has no impact on this increasingly well documented fault.
 

Mark2 may be able to offer some advice given his experience with this issue, dealings with the dealership and Audi UK.
 

Part of the issue here is the warranty claims team will do what they can to push back on the dealership. There is always the question of legally what is defendable given the terms and conditions of a warranty and associated grey areas vs the question of what they will do ref brand protection in terms of how much of a fuss you are prepared to make and how.

Given how expensive and time consuming the former can be I would start with the latter, make it clear to the dealership you are clear the remapping has no relevance to the root cause for this known fault, that you are prepared to put some serious time into their social media presence to highlight the case and your treatment and put together a suitably polite but reasonable request to Audi UK execs (Mark2 should be able to highlight who to focus on given his experience). 

Good luck - Audi should be ashamed of this fault, not fully root causing and fully fixing via a recall. 

[JASENRS6]

21 minutes ago, ASHAH12 said:

It should be covered abd the remap has nothing to do with the failure of the alternator. Did you tell them your vehicle was remapped? I would suggest you go back let them know that UK Audi now cover this under an extended 7 year warranty and unlimited mileage. If they still say no then I would escalate this to UK Audi and then follow small claims court. The remap has nothing to do with the alternator failure. Its a defect on that part.

Hi Azam

Thanks for the quick reply

 

No they could tell it was remapped, when they plugged the car in, It was DMS Automotive who remapped it, the dealership is being really snotty about it, i phoned audi uk about the issue this evening but they said the would look into it, but i Am not holding out much hope at all with them, Audi uk said on the phone they dont take any heading to Forums on the internet

 

I am pulling my hair out here with this!!

 

J

 

AUDI WARRANTY.pdf

[JASENRS6]

5 minutes ago, RSW said:

Sorry to hear about that JASENRS6. Agree with ASHA12, remapping has no impact on this increasingly well documented fault.
 

Mark2 may be able to offer some advice given his experience with this issue, dealings with the dealership and Audi UK.
 

Part of the issue here is the warranty claims team will do what they can to push back on the dealership. There is always the question of legally what is defendable given the terms and conditions of a warranty and associated grey areas vs the question of what they will do ref brand protection in terms of how much of a fuss you are prepared to make and how.

Given how expensive and time consuming the former can be I would start with the latter, make it clear to the dealership you are clear the remapping has no relevance to the root cause for this known fault, that you are prepared to put some serious time into their social media presence to highlight the case and your treatment and put together a suitably polite but reasonable request to Audi UK execs (Mark2 should be able to highlight who to focus on given his experience). 

Good luck - Audi should be ashamed of this fault, not fully root causing and fully fixing via a recall. 

Hi RSW

 

I hope MARK2 Can help me with this

 

I asked them about this should be a recall and there answer was 

Its not a common problem so no need for a recall!

 

J

[Mark2]

I am still awaiting a response from Audi UK regarding the serious safety concerns around this failure. Do you realise if you had the child locks switched on the rear doors and the failure does not allow you to release the door locks then anyone in the back seats would be trapped unable to open the doors from the inside or out.

as soon as I get a response I will publish it

 

[RSW]

@ JASE RS6 I imagine that’s linked to not making any statement that could provide evidence in the US Class action and of course a want to avoid premature expense. 
 

I would be unambiguous with your dealership that this specific component is known to fail hence the extended 7yr warranty that started stateside and is now applicable in the U.K. 

I spoke to two Audi technicians independently on a paid for advice service and they were both careful in their responses but effectively confirmed that they had seen a number of these failures across a number of Audi models with the 48/12v MHEV system including RS6/7 examples. They said they felt it was certainly an emerging issue but one that is not yet recognised by Audi UK as a fault warranting recall. 
 

The fact that they extended the warranty in the US and now the U.K. on this system set speaks for itself. 
 

good luck 

Edited March 14 by RSW

[Mark2]

In the meantime I agree remapping will have had no effect on the Alternator failure. This device is belt driven and either acts as a starter to kick start the engine when it stops in traffic or charges the battery when the engine is running. It charges the 48v battery which then charges the 12v battery which runs all the computers , locks, steering, grearbox, heated seats, air con etc. so you can imagine it does not take long to discharge. My dealer has seen 3 failure, there are 5000 VW /Audi dealers so that could be 15000 vehicles so we need to get the message out.

[Cally]

I am currently in discussion with Audi UK regarding the 48v MHEV starter generator fault on my Audi A6 Allroad, which caused it to suffer a total catastrophic failure on a Swiss motorway on 6 January 2024. Just prior to joining the motorway we had descended a steep mountain pass.  If the vehicle had shutdown whilst descending the pass it would have been very difficult, potentially impossible, to stop the vehicle safely.  Our children were trapped in the back seats as we could not open the doors and our dog was trapped in the load space.

Audi UK only accepted responsibility for the repair after a one month battle and many, many telephone conversations and emails (from me).  My request to communicate in writing, has so far been ignored, with not one written response being received.  The vehicle was repaired under the 'special' 7 year extended warranty.  I have been informed that the part number has been changed, but they cannot confirm if there has been a design change which would prevent such a catastrophic 'out of the blue' failure from reoccurring. Due to a change in part number there will be no further warranty on this fault.  My car was returned to me a week ago today and on our test drive it immediately showed a fault, albeit a different one.  This time the fault advises 'P button fault, please contact workshop'.  This fault was not previously apparent and we therefore do not know if it is a consequence of the catastrophic fault, or due to workshop intervention.  One week later I am still waiting to hear from the dealership.

We travel to the Alps several times a year and I believe this vehicle to be unfit for purpose.  I have reported the vehicle as a dangerous vehicle to the Driving Standards Agency.  I have received a response that acknowledges a quality concern does exist, however, further investigation had been hampered by Audi refusing to release further information.  I do now have the technicians report and I will be submitting this along with other evidence and await the government departments response.

I have reviewed the Audi America Technical Bulletin (kindly posted on this forum by another member) which relates to this fault and it confirms that the fault affects vehicles throughout the Audi range.  I have also established that there were in fact a total of 50,000 cars in the UK affected by safety recalls for the same fault in June 2020 and October 2020.  This information was obtained from the UK government website.

Despite being a VW and Audi driver for over 20 years, I have totally lost faith in my car and the brand and requested a buy back and so the argument continues.......

[Mark2]

Cally, what you report is shocking and bears out exactly what I have been telling Audi UK is a likely worse case scenario. I was promised a response by today from Audi UK but nothing so far. I too want responses in writing.

[RSW]

Cally, that’s a dreadful situation to find yourself  in, simply dangerous for anyone to have to experience that, every parent’s nightmare as well. 

I’m going to reach out to Which and see whether or not they are willing to take a consumer safety orientated approach to looking into this and related cases and the way in which Audi are allowing customers to deal with this dangerous failure when it occurs by simply hiding behind warranty extensions and existing regs regarding the absence of a need to give customers at the very least an early warning for the 48/12v MHEV system when it is beginning to fail  etc. 

Will post here if i get anywhere with that.  
 

 

[Cally]

Which is an excellent avenue to pursue. I am considering Rip Off Britain and Watchdog as other options. In writing to Audi I have told them they are not only risking the safety of Audi drivers and their passengers, but also the safety of other road users forced to take evasive action.

[RSW]

Cally, definitely good avenues to pursue - the potential for disaster here plus your story alone should be enough to get some interest from those consumer groups.  
 

Sadly seems that this is what will be needed to get Audi to react differently.