Electric Cars

[Stevey Y]

Hi Gents just thought I would throw this out there, we seem to get more people joining who now own fully electric cars, without being offensive in any way I can't see any benefit to them if they have a problem, I might be wrong but is there anyone on this site that fully understands their complexities given that Audi franchises that have all the latest tech have problems fixing the later conventional cars, its a worrying future.

Steve.

[Anton8]

Hi Steve

I haven't got a clue what goes on when I switch the Audi on. I bought my E-Tron GT initially for pleasing shape and performance. In my mind there is not much to go wrong with the car, accepting the braking and steering systems there are only two moving parts. The motors. I accept that the electronic systems must be very complex but most of the ICE cars these days are similarly complex. I do wonder sometimes what it is going to be like in the years to come with 70k - 100k miles on the clock. 

Tony

[Steve Q]

With the development of synthetic fuels electric cars are nill and void in my opinion. Especially as Germany has delayed 2030 ban on petrol/diesel cars because of this.

They do more damage to the environment to manufacturer than an petrol/diesel car and their shelf life is a lot less. 

And a lot of the owners who think they're being green forget tyres, plastics and electricity all comes from fossil fuels. 

Not to mention the fire risk, this is my biggest concern. If I bought one and it sat on the drive then caught fire it could take 4 houses with it. 

[Stevey Y]

11 hours ago, Steve Q said:

With the development of synthetic fuels electric cars are nill and void in my opinion. Especially as Germany has delayed 2030 ban on petrol/diesel cars because of this.

They do more damage to the environment to manufacturer than an petrol/diesel car and their shelf life is a lot less. 

And a lot of the owners who think they're being green forget tyres, plastics and electricity all comes from fossil fuels. 

Not to mention the fire risk, this is my biggest concern. If I bought one and it sat on the drive then caught fire it could take 4 houses with it. 

Hi Steve I forgot about the spontaneous combustion factor, prime example was the van load of electric scooters that went up this year in London, it only took four hours to put the fire out and caused chaos.

Steve.

[Steve Q]

1 hour ago, Stevey Y said:

Hi Steve I forgot about the spontaneous combustion factor, prime example was the van load of electric scooters that went up this year in London, it only took four hours to put the fire out and caused chaos.

Steve.

Major concern in my opinion. Plus another factor is whilst a petrol/diesel car has fuel the driver is relatively free. Whereas the government can just turn off the car chargers remotely due to smart meters. Same for home energy use eventually 

[mike71]

On 10/17/2024 at 7:55 AM, Steve Q said:

With the development of synthetic fuels electric cars are nill and void in my opinion. Especially as Germany has delayed 2030 ban on petrol/diesel cars because of this.

They do more damage to the environment to manufacturer than an petrol/diesel car and their shelf life is a lot less. 

And a lot of the owners who think they're being green forget tyres, plastics and electricity all comes from fossil fuels. 

Not to mention the fire risk, this is my biggest concern. If I bought one and it sat on the drive then caught fire it could take 4 houses with it. 

 

[mike71]

Spot on there

[Anton8]

I accept that electric cars are not as green as people think. But, I am sure they do go some way towards helping the environment. As to the fire risk your ICE car sits on the drive with probably 10 gallons of highly flammable fuel in the tank. With regard to turning off the chargers so we can't recharge, how many of you queued for hours for fuel when Russia invaded The Ukraine, 

[Steve Q]

21 minutes ago, Anton8 said:

I accept that electric cars are not as green as people think. But, I am sure they do go some way towards helping the environment. As to the fire risk your ICE car sits on the drive with probably 10 gallons of highly flammable fuel in the tank. With regard to turning off the chargers so we can't recharge, how many of you queued for hours for fuel when Russia invaded The Ukraine, 

I suppose the difference between a flammable petrol/diesel car Vs flammable electric car is that a petrol or diesel can be put out far easier. Which is a major consideration. 

In my opinion if the government had been serious about us all driving electric cars they would have been investing in the infrastructure 15 years ago. Ie charging points on new houses even 15 years ago. Baring in mind tis was possible as the Nissan leaf, vauxhall ampara etc have been around a long time. Same with investing in the charging points etc that long back too. 

Which makes me think two things.

1. Either the government want the vast majority of the public out of car ownership/usage as the infrastructure isn't their to charge 2 cars per household across the country (bare in mind the average household has 4 cars now). 

2. Like they did the diesel cars in the 90s/noughties they persuaded people to buy them as they were cheaper to run and allegedly greener. Now further down the line they're telling us the opposite about diesels and telling us electric are the future.

I bet this will change and they'll tell us electric cars aren't good for the environment and persuade people to switch to new tech such as synthetic fuel or hydrogen. 

At the end of the day it all depends on where our corrupt politicians have their money invested affects what they try and enforce or bring into effect on us. 

A good example of this was when the politicians invested in haulage, motorway construction companies etc in the 1950s/early 1960s then deliberately destroyed the rail industry by initially banning mixed freight then closing services which were vital to push people into cars. Beaching was the unused as the Scape goat. 

Bare in mind all towns and some villages had a rail yard where goods were unloaded then a Scammel scarab 3 wheeled lorry was used to transport the goods around the town or village. 

[mike71]

Yes, happy days. As the government pushes even harder towards EV ownership and buyers learn more about the cons of ownership, hopefully there will be a push towards alternative fuels, ie synthetic petrol. But first the government needs to understand that the vast majority can't charge at home and or can't afford the cost of buying an EV as opposed to a reliable second hand ICE car.

[Anton8]

You could discuss the pro and cons of Electric, Diesel, Petrol, Hydrogen for ever. But for one that owns an electric car I am more than happy with it. It is quiet, good looking and extremely rapid, economical to run and I get a thrill every drive I drive it.  

[Steve Q]

30 minutes ago, Anton8 said:

You could discuss the pro and cons of Electric, Diesel, Petrol, Hydrogen for ever. But for one that owns an electric car I am more than happy with it. It is quiet, good looking and extremely rapid, economical to run and I get a thrill every drive I drive it.  

This is where them problem has risen in my opinion, from the dawn of the car there has been both petrol and electric vehicles, then diesel vehicles and odd hydrogen ones too. They all have their place and suit the users differently. The government trying to switch all users to one form of vehicle power use (electric) and this is the problem. Because telling someone like me who couldn't have an electric car due to practicality causes resistance and frustration. 

[cliffcoggin]

As a driver of an all electric car for the last three years I have refrained from joining this discussion until I gained some more experience and knowledge. The whole subject is a minefield of misinformation and myth which, being a scientist at heart, I am happy to dispel, or at least argue. These are my observations.

ECONOMY. I bought the car for reasons solely of economy. Fuel costs of 2.5 pence per mile can not be matched by any liquid fuel car. However the car is tiny and only charged at home on cheap electricity; those with bigger cars charging at public charging stations on a motorway will get comparable fuel costs to petrol & diesel.

CARBON EMISSIONS. The electricity has to be generated somehow. If that is done by burning fossil fuel at power stations then all we are doing is moving the combustion from our cars to the power stations, and nothing is gained environmentally. Electricity generation needs to done by an alternative process that does not involve burning stuff.

CARBON FOOTPRINT. If the carbon footprint of the manufacturing process for both types of cars is considered, then electric cars will need to travel a greater distance before achieving carbon neutrality.

ROAD WEAR. Electric cars are heavier than the equivalent non electric models so it is inevitable that more wear and damage will be caused to the roads.

DIESEL vs BIO DIESEL. These two forms of fuel are virtually identical chemically, so they both emit the same amount of CO2. To argue that bio diesel is better for the environment are therefore nonsense. The only difference is that one is extracted from under ground while the other is grown on the ground surface. Both need processing of some sort to become a commercial product.

BATTERY LIFE. Early lithium car batteries (such as the Mk1 Nissan leaf,) had little or no temperature control so they degraded and only lasted a few years. Later cars have much better liquid cooling/heating and hence last a lot longer. Typically they are guaranteed for eight years.

BATTERY CHEMISTRY. The current lithium/cobalt/manganese batteries require sophisticated battery management systems to control their charging and discharging to avoid damage, and yet they do eventually degrade. They also suffer uncontrollable fires if damaged. Newer lithium/iron batteries are more durable though their capacity is less. They are also less prone to uncontrollable fires than LiMnCo. Both types are difficult and dangerous to recycle at the end of their useful lives. Newer chemistries such as sodium batteries have the potential to perform better on all counts though, like nuclear fusion, that goal is always at least ten years away.

RANGE. The range of most electric cars is much less than their petrol/diesel equivalents and the availability of public charge points is also less so careful planning was needed for a long distance journey. Thankfully that is now changing but the two are still not comparable in terms of convenience.

PUBLIC RECHARGING. [1] The ability to recharge in public has been spoiled by each electricity vendor requiring its own particular RFID card or phone application and account. Only recently has that started to change with the introduction of credit card payment. [2] The CCS plug is becoming the standard for Europe, but there are still plenty of Type 2 and Chademo plug cars on the road, so vendors should provide all three types of outlet, though few now do so. The situation in the USA differs in that Type 1 plugs have been the standard so American cars can not be used in Europe and vice versa. [3] Maintenance of charge points has been notoriously poor in the past, though that is at last changing. (The vendors received a government subsidy for installation of charge points but were not required to maintain them.)

The consequence for anybody wanting to recharge in public was that one had to find a charge point that (a) functioned, (b) suited the accounts and cards in ones wallet or phone, (c) was within range.

I have written much more than I intended, but I could not make it less without ignoring some essential factors. 

 

Edited Saturday at 03:45 PM by cliffcoggin
omission

[mike71]

That just about sums it up really, including the fact that batteries are guaranteed for 8 years, this would surely mean that buying an EV of that age would need a replacement battery and that is unfortunately where the problem lies. Would you buy an 8 year old ICE car and then expect to replace the engine. Call me an old dinosaur but when I put my foot on the load pedal I like the feeling I get from the noise it makes as much as the acceleration. As said above we should have a choice and not be forced into EVs by an over zealous government. 

[alpha omega]

hydrogen it seems is the only way forward....but whatever happens we will always be conned by goverment think tanks

[Stevey Y]

5 hours ago, Anton8 said:

You could discuss the pro and cons of Electric, Diesel, Petrol, Hydrogen for ever. But for one that owns an electric car I am more than happy with it. It is quiet, good looking and extremely rapid, economical to run and I get a thrill every drive I drive it.  

Hi I am glad you are happy with the car, but it begs the question would anyone be happy with the depreciation of these vehicles from 95k + new to about 40k at three years old.

Steve.

[mike71]

The problem is that as new technology arrives the prices for used EVs drop. EVs are like iPhone in this respect. If only the government would encourage a halfway measure like the hybrid cars I think this would help us move away from ICE cars. EVs are only a stop gap until something else comes along.

[cliffcoggin]

18 hours ago, mike71 said:

That just about sums it up really, including the fact that batteries are guaranteed for 8 years, this would surely mean that buying an EV of that age would need a replacement battery and that is unfortunately where the problem lies.

Not true. Guaranteed for eight years does not mean it will expire in eight years, any more than a seven year guarantee on a liquid fuel car means the engine will implode after seven years.