No start, possibly no compression

[Mark8235]

Sorry this is my first post here guys but headed here to see if there is any advice from the wealth of knowledge that will be in here. 
 

Long story short, wife’s 2018 Q3 1.4tsi with 65000 miles on click had been running up until Tuesday morning. She drove it home from work on Monday evening and parked it up, no inkling that there was anything afoot.

Tuesday morning we left house at same time, wife comes to my window and said cars not starting. This particular morning was -4degrees so my initial thought was battery issue. Dropped lid of at school and wife at work then back home to have a look. 
 

Jumped in, ignition on and all that should light up appeared to light up so gave it a burl. When ignition turned all I got was a whirring noise, noise you’d expect to hear if there was a starter motor issue, not engaging with flywheel. It was cranking healthy enough so I then discounted battery issue and focussed on it being a starter motor issue. Gave it the usual customary chap with a crowbar incase it was starter solenoid not working. No change, still just a whirring noise. This next bit should have raised suspicion. When you turn ignition against spring and release once whirring starts, let the key back of the spring, the whirring continues until ignition turned off.

 

I was still convinced this was a starter motor issue so called a mobile mechanic, explained above in my words and he agreed, sounds like a starter issue so he came Thursday with a new starter and changed said starter. Before changing starter he listened to engine and thought starter solenoid issue. 
 

Once starter changed, engine still not starting. Making the same fast whirring noise but mobile mechanic now noted auxiliary belt spinning. Took cambelt cover off and cambelt is still intact and spinning but engine not even attempting to fire. Spark plugs out and smell of fuel, so guess not a fuel issue. No faults showing other than clock spring fault that I know about and is in hand. (New clock spring was fitted Sept 23 and has failed again so waiting to get into Audi so they can start a warranty part repair.) . The thing that worries mechanic is that engine turning over freely, he thinks no compression and also on his diagnostic tool the crankshaft speed sensor is showing no data when engine cranked.

Vehicle last serviced in May this year, cambelt replaced Sept 23. 

No obvious loss of oil or coolant, no symptoms prior to Tuesday morning. Anyone experienced similar previously? Is my/wifes engine goosed or is there a sensor that could cause this issue? 
 

Any help much appreciated folks,

 

thanks in advance, Mark

[cliffcoggin]

Mark.

It certainly sounds like there is no compression. Given that the camshaft is turning, the crankshaft must also be turning. My guess is the belt has jumped a few teeth so that the camshaft is out of phase with the crankshaft. If that is so there is the possibility of damage to the valves so it would be unwise to turn the engine again. I suggest you get the car towed or lifted to a garage for a deeper investigation.

Do you have any form of guarantee on the cambelt?

[Mark8235]

It was a reputable independent Audi workshop that carried out the timing belt change, I think possibly only 12month warranty. I appreciate the reply and when I put it all together your hypothesis of timing issue makes sense. Would pistons v valves not have some kind of tragic noises coming from engine? 
Thanks for your reply 🙏

[cliffcoggin]

19 minutes ago, Mark8235 said:

Would pistons v valves not have some kind of tragic noises coming from engine? 

Perhaps, but never having had it happen to me I don't know.

[Magnet]

Hello Mark,

I’m really sorry to hear of your issue. 
If it were mine, I would attack this from the logical stance of getting the compressions tested as the first task. 
If the belt has slipped (and let’s hope it hasn’t) then carrying out a compression test on each cylinder is not going to cause any more damage than has already been done. 
If the belt hasn’t slipped then carrying out the compression test will give essential information before moving on to other non starting possibilities. 
Perhaps you can keep us up to date on what occurs.

Kind regards,

Gareth. 

[Stevey Y]

4 hours ago, Mark8235 said:

It was a reputable independent Audi workshop that carried out the timing belt change, I think possibly only 12month warranty. I appreciate the reply and when I put it all together your hypothesis of timing issue makes sense. Would pistons v valves not have some kind of tragic noises coming from engine? 
Thanks for your reply 🙏

Hi no noises as the cam lobes are designed to throw the cam followers out to prevent valves from annihilating the pistons I reckon it could well be the crank position sensor.

Steve.

[Mark8235]

Thanks for replies guys. So compression test is key I’m guessing. Crank speed sensor is my glimmer of hope in this !Removed! storm. Been losing sleep over this since last week. I’m not the most mechanically minded, paramedic to trade 😂. I will keep the thread updated as I go, let’s hope I have a positive update soon 🤦‍♂️😂. Thanks again 🙏

[Mark8235]

Update. So no compression, zero across all 4 cylinders. Quick bore scope, cylinders look ok but limited view obviously. Some carbon on inlet valves but they don’t think excessive or to a level they think it would cause zero compression. Fault code showing for low fuel pressure now. The garage it’s at are going to retime the engine and if it’s still the same then they would condemn at that point and recommend uneconomical repair on the engine.

[cliffcoggin]

Well if retiming the cambelt does not give decent compression on all cylinders it's likely the valves are damaged.

A new head will be very expensive, but a secondhand head might be a viable option if you can find somebody to overhaul it.

[Mark8235]

See below and attached for garage update 

Hi Mark, We have checked the timing and it was out, We set it back up but we can feel the top end of the engine is tight, Once we re-set the timing there is still no compression so there is internal engine damage, Its going to need either an engine strip down or a new engine.

Vehicle Inspection PC08544.pdf

[cliffcoggin]

O dear, that is very bad news but not unexpected.

I believe you have the potential for a claim against the garage which fitted the cambelt 15 months ago. Can we assume the belt tensioner was renewed at the same time? If not, why not? Was other work done at the same time? Has the belt cover been removed at any since the belt was fitted? I am trying to get an idea of how well the work was done, and whether it has since been interfered with.

[Mark8235]

Yeah it’s not a great outcome. Was a timing belt kit I believe. Not sure if that is part of said kit. As for if any other work was done at that point, that’s a no. Purely timing belt replacement. Since then there was a service in May but can’t see any reason why belt cover would be removed during that. I’m at a loss what to do. Garage have said they won’t strip down further as cost would likely snowball. Now needing to try and find someone who can and would fit a 2nd hand engine. This gives me the fear. Gutted is an understatement 

[Magnet]

OK Mark,

Let’s keep this as simple as possible:- 

Allow this garage to retime the belt positioning, then retest the compressions. 
If still no compression then, find another garage who will remove the cylinder head to establish what is wrong. 
I would put the ‘secondhand’ engine considerstion on the back burner until the above has been carried out.

We will support you through this as best we can. 
Kind regards,

Gareth. 

[Mark8235]

52 minutes ago, Magnet said:

OK Mark,

Let’s keep this as simple as possible:- 

Allow this garage to retime the belt positioning, then retest the compressions. 
If still no compression then, find another garage who will remove the cylinder head to establish what is wrong. 
I would put the ‘secondhand’ engine considerstion on the back burner until the above has been carried out.

We will support you through this as best we can. 
Kind regards,

Gareth. 

Heh Gareth, 

thanks for your reply. So as per the report, timing was reset and still no compression. They described the top end of the engine as tight when the timing belt wasn’t attached, indicative of bent valves in cylinder head. They said the timing was approximately out by 120deg. I still can’t get over that the car was running the night before. The garage also report that there was some, albeit a little, oil sat on top of piston/pistons, not sure how many. My worry with head rebuild is if there is damage further down into engine. 
 

Really appreciate everyone’s input so far guys 👍. Just don’t know whether to cut my loses with this engine or keep going at an indefinite cost and still possibly be faced with similar outcome. Never a good time of the year to be faced with this outlay but Xmas time just sucks. 
 

Thanks again guys 🙏

[Magnet]

Thanks for coming back to us Mark, and without being patronising, I really feel for the plight you are in - very much at the wrong time of the year, particularly since you did the right procedural thing in getting the cambelt changed. 
Why it should suddenly jump a third of a turn? 
Almost certainly too slack, and with additional strain on a cold morning, the belt simply jumps. 
Did your garage confirm that the waterpump bearing was still serviceable, and similarly with the belt tensioner and idler, and was the tensioner adequately secured to the engine block? Was the auxiliary drive belt renewed at the same time? Apologies, since the above will only give you an indication of why it may have failed - but obviously no consultation. 
Way forward,

What mileage has this 6 year old car covered Mark.

As said, you have two or three choices:- 

Cut your losses and sell the car on eBay as a non runner. 
Get a garage to remove the cylinder head and assess the actual damage. 
You can then decide on your next course of action, which could be finding a secondhand head, or engine. 
Sorry I can be more helpful at this stage Mark, but please come back to us, and we will attempt to advise at any or all stages. 
Kind regards,

Gareth. 
p.s. Why not take this up with the garage who fitted this belt some 14 months ago. 

[cliffcoggin]

Mark.

As Gareth said, your choices are to sell the car in its present condition or to investigate repair by removing the head. At one time there were companys who would rebuild blocks, heads and even whole engines, but I get the impression they are now rare. That is something you would need to research. A secondhand head from a breaker's yard is a possibility if it comes with a cast iron guarantee.

I would not worry about the bore scope report of a little oil on the pistons, that is to be expected as some of the valves are not closing, as long as no damage was visible on the piston crowns. Damaged pistons would add greatly to the cost.

I still feel the garage that changed the belt bears some responsibilty providing it did the job properly, including any recommended change of water pump and belt tensioner etc. If short cuts were taken to reduce the cost by not carrying out all those tasks then its liability is reduced or eliminated.