EGR delete.

[Dan3222]

I have read several threads that mention EGR deletes. I am hoping people can add to this thread with their own experiences of EGR deletes. I write it because of the change in ECU technologies on how the EGRs work. Basically, when EGRs were first used introduced, although electronically deployed they are vacuum operated, the less complicated ECU's could not tell if the EGR was actually working or not or even if actually still fitted. However, in  more recent years ECU's can tell if they ARE fitted and sense if they ARE working.

To try to elaborate a little more. VW on the T5's used a simple EGR system up to 2006 that could be blocked or deleted with ease at home. However, on 2006 onward vehicles, the delete/block would not be accepted by the ECU as it electrically deploys the open/close function and detects the results or now lack of, giving an immision warning light. The two solutions are either SW (SoftWare) delete of EGR function or drilling a hole in the blank, allowing the pressure sensor to be tricked into thinking the EGR is still fully functional.

This in turn leads to the point of me starting this thread.

I think it would be a useful info resource for each type of car A1 - Q7 if just the blocking delete worked or not. Be interesting to see if certain models had the change at different years etc.

My own personal opinion on an EGR delete/blank is only useful if the EGR is actually causing an issue. I do not see how the blanking etc significantly increases performance (mainly relating to turbo's here). As they are only open on idle or on cruising (I am happy to be corrected on the latter btw) and closed on acceleration!!! A closed EGR is the same as a blank.

[rbdazza]

Correct. Most modern cars need a software delete as a minimum and some need the physical delete too. 

I did mine as a precaution, it was free with the remap anyway. It's not about performance, it's about your engines health. It's about fuel consumption and after many miles you are teetering on performance, unless you enjoy cleaning egrs and manifolds full of solid carbon 

[Magnet]

Hello Darren and Dan,

Sorry to bother you both, but I find this interesting, if only from the point that it exposes my ignorance of the detail of such things! 

Now you chaps know what you are talking about here, and my experience extends only as far as cleaning EGR valves on BMW engined Rovers and Land Rover, and with Dan's explanation it becomes clear that this must be the old fashioned clean-it-stick-it back-on/blank -it -off type. Nice and simple, and I like simple! 

Latest generation VAG ones might be more complex and sensor controlled then, and if so, is this where the issues are throwing themselves up following these recalls? If so, would you have any ideas as to what actually goes wrong with the EGR valve that  warrants changing it , and why would whatever they do during the recall has such a bad effect on it? 

Would  I be right Darren in understanding that if you have the engine remapped, it is possible to do something to over ride these issues, and if so, would such remapping be able to be done on the generation of engines now subject to recall?

Where I getting to is, would it be useful for owners of cars now giving problems after recalls  (EGR valve-wise) to have their cars remapped (cheaper?) rather than paying to have new EGR valves fitted? 

Over to you good folks, since I believe you are never too old to learn! 

Many thanks and kind regards,

Gareth.

[Dan3222]

Hey Gareth,

TBH I don't know 100% what exactly your referring to on the recall stuff. Do you mean recall in general on EGR's or more specifically the immisions scandle. If the latter, I don't really know what exactly is being 'fixed' by the manufactures on the cars to remove the emissions cheat (I would be interested to know tbh).

Everyone has their own opinion on EGR and DPF deletes. They are definately easier to do on older vehicles for sure but if you delete an EGR valve and you have a DPF (diesel particulate filter) fitted then you really should have the DPF hollowed out or have a dummy CAT box fitted (before I get trolled, the exhuast manufactures refer to the DPF box as a CAT. In fact, to complicate matters, my T5 has the DPF which also incorporates a CAT matrix in the same box). The reason being is that the crap that normally gets directed to the inlet manifold and burnt in the engine, via the EGR, now goes straight into the DPF matrix, blocking it up, causing bad running and even complete failure (excessive back pressure). (As Dazza said, have you seen the amount of carbon deposits on EGR's and the inlet manifold).

So in an ideal world, yes get the EGR blanked or deleted and get rid of the DPF. But there is a legal and responsible aspect to consider too. The EGR's were invented to help reduce the higher levels of hydrocarbons released through the exhaust. Your choice if you want to bypass it, can you live with yourself? lol.

Then there is the future MOT's to consider. It has been proposed to have the DPF tested for functionality soon. There are a lot of people out there with DPF deletes that could potentially be forced to re-fit  a DPF to pass said MOT. I have yet to see a performance company that do the remapping and DPF deletes, comment on what this will all mean for them and their customers! Food for thought.

My own personal opinion, be it right or wrong, is to keep everything in good working order. Regularly use a good quality injector cleaner like Millers or Rhino and also understand how to do a forced DPF clean. These standard systems can cope with a hell of a lot more power before they become restrictive in any way. But if I was wanting to extract max HP from my derv vehicle I would then blank the EGR and have a dummy CAT fitted. This way it can easily be revered if need be.

Again though, I just wanted this to be a useful thread for reference on what needs to be done to their own vehicles should the EGR need deleting.

last thing to say is oil type after EGR AND DPF delete are done. Just because the car might now not be on a long life service and not require the additives that included in 507 spec oil for example. You should always still use the same oil. You might be able to get a cheaper oil but for the sake of £5-£10 a year why would you even consider it. Use the best oil that your car was designed to use, always. My tuppence worth anywho!!😉

 

[rbdazza]

Almost Dan. the EGR is there to reduce NOx, but in turn creates more soot/particulates, hence the need for a DPF.

Gareth, the link between the emissions scandal (recall) and failed EGRs is beyoned me, i assume it is something to do with how they are forcing hardware to run in a way it wasn;t intended to in order to achieve the emissions standards they originally claimed.

the reason things are different now with EGRs is that they are ECU and vacuum controlled, so more to go wrong. 

[Magnet]

Many thanks both,

If the link between recalls and the significant number of examples of quotes for needing new EGR valves after, puzzles you then that makes it really puzzling! What a hope for the general public who are the receiving end of this. It does seem that owners have little option other than to pay up.

I still ask the question - can this recall action be simply reversed if the owner is discontent? It would be reasonable to expect that anything which gets computer adjusted can be reset back to where it was. Well you would think so!

Kind regards to you both,

Gareth.

[rbdazza]

The best option would to be to not have it done. But yeah you can have it "un done" by a remap, but you shouldn't have to. 

Dan, the reason these mapping companies won't comment on the MOT side of things is that, as yet, there is no steer on how they could test. There is no universal way to check via ODB so the only really option is a particulate counter, I don't believe they currently exist in an affordable way for all MOT stations to be mandated to use them. 

 

I truly believe in emissions controls, however they should not be to the detriment of the end users wallet, DPFs are useless and costly for the owner (both in repairs and the increased MPG), EGRs generally only activate when idling so other than taxis where's the benefit? most modern cars have stop start anyway. Oh and they are massively prone to failure AND the sole cause of the entire inlet side coking up impacting on performance, reliability and economy. 

[Dan3222]

Dazza, thanks for correcting me on the NO reduction. Was kinda trying to keep it simple in terms of the DPF, function of and potential issues if running DPF without EGR functioning correctly. Have seen several cores that have melted through because of the excessive carbon deposits once the EGR's have been deleted or blocked.

The MOT thing is definately on the cards and I just think it's good advice to keep the DPF/CAT for just in case. It was proposed and my local MOT guy told me absolutely it. However, I recently spoke with him about it and he said it's not happening as quickly as first thought. He said that MOT stations are given notice on changes so that they have time to buy in the new equipment in plenty of time. But I think u have hit the nail on the head as they are struggling to get equipment to measure the HC's effectively. There might be some leeway on the age of a vehicle as to whether it would need testing on it. Last thing worth mentioning was he said the only way to potentially fool it will be to ensure that there is an injector cleaner in the fuel on test day. His words not mine.

Out of interest Dazza, do you just run cooking oil or do you make you own biofuel?

[rbdazza]

I think what they will do is lower the smoke thresholds and do away with the visual check. So injector cleaner might help. I think it was around 09 dpfs became mandatory even though earlier models had them however I think it will be that if the car should have one it will have a different test to one that wasn't manufactured with one, regardless of age. 

I process veg to biodiesel, interestingly it emits 50% less particulates that derv and is the sole reason I had a dpf delete. It is also as near to co2 neutral as you can get.   My conscience is clear haha.