Mark2

I have just had a response from the DVSA regarding my FOI request regarding Audi's respose to them. They have not send me any FOI info siting two sensitive issues which I think are BS and either a cover up for their inefficiency or the hope I will go away. I am escalating this to a DVSA internal review with my response below- Dear sirs, I am unhappy with the response from DVSA which has provided me with no information and the excuses appear perfunctory. It also may indicate lack of probing by the DVSA into the responses given by Audi and there is some back covering going on. I do hope that is not the case the DVSA must be working in the public interest. The two reasons for your failing to provide me with FOI information are summarised as follows : Section 31 -disclosure of info may harm your ability to obtain info in the future Section 43 -the information requested is commercially sensitive and could be used by any competitor to Audi I should like therefore to address each of my questions and test those against your reasoning above STAGE ONE 1] What are the visual and audible warnings triggered when the alternator fails to charge? This is a reasonable question and Audi have stated to you there is a two stage warning so that is in the public domain, they must have designed the mild hybrid cars with such systems and they would have advised users what those warnings were, otherwise they would not have designed any warnings. How can this answer possibly fall within Section 31 or 43? 2] How is the driver informed that the failure is that the alternator is no longer charging the battery? Vehicle manufacturers have generally for the last 80 years provided a warning lamp on the dash to warn the driver that the Dynamo/ alternator is no longer charging the battery. This is not a new system which could provide a competitor an advantage and it can hardly be regarded answering it as jeopardising the DVSA relationship with manufacturers. 3] How does this stage warn the driver that continued vehicle use will lead to ‘roll out’ and that he should park the vehicle safely as soon as possible ? This is actually what happens , any Audi competitor can discover this is what happens by searching on the internet or by replicating the failure in an Audi vehicle. Competitors buy their opponents vehicles all the time to check them out. These vehicle were designed 5-8 years ago so are not exactly cutting edge technology. As this is what occurs and in the public domain how can the answers possibly fall within your sections above. 4] How long does Stage One last before Stage Two kicks in? A reasonable question as Audi have declared there are two stages how can there be a secret about when they occur? 5] What does ‘the Code’ state is the reasonable warnings and time given to the driver to take action This is a question for the DVSA as it relates to your Code. How can your answering a question about your own procedures be governed by commercial sensitivity to a manufacturer? STAGE TWO 1] What are the visual and acoustic warnings triggered at stage two? This is a reasonable question and Audi have stated to you there is a two stage warning so that is in the public domain, they must have designed the mild hybrid cars with such systems and they would have advised users what those warnings were, otherwise they would not have designed any warnings. How can this answer possibly fall within Section 31 or 43? 2] How is the driver informed that he is now in Stage Two and this is becoming more critical? A reasonable question as Audi have declared there are two stages how can there be a secret about when they occur and their urgency? This is just the sort of driver info that the DVSA should be ensuring manufactures instal. 3] How does stage two warn the driver to stop as soon as possible and what is the average time frame between stage two activation and vehicle failure- ‘roll out’ ? Audi have declared the two stage warning, it is incomprehensible that the DVSA have not probed that further to establish the effectiveness of such a two stage system. This has no commercially sensitive info but is critical for any driver experiencing full vehicle shut down and as such must be in the DVSA’s remit to publish the answer. 4] What is the Code spec for stage two? This is a question for the DVSA as it relates to your Code. How can your answering a question about your own procedures be governed by commercial sensitivity to a manufacturer? I look forward to a full investigation and the DVSA providing answers which are of paramount safety interest to all Audi Mild Hybrid vehicle drivers.

Did not notice any changes in my RS6, all back to normal, but those are the items to kill if the yellow lights come on again

It’s Audi.executiveoffice@audi.co.uk

I am really sorry David but I have no axe to grind. I’m requesting FoI date from DVSA and will not let this go. However if you can use what Audi have done for me to improve your situation I am happy to pitch in and help.

Have you written to Mr Doyle at Audi UK, this is the way to get results.

That is also my view that is why I put it out there so anyone else can use my example with Audi UK, if they can do this for one owner they can do the same for everyone. Let’s face it the trauma is the same whether you drive a Q3, RS6 or RSQ8

My RS6 was out of warranty by 3 months, I had no breakdown cover so was exposed. I just made a nuisance of myself writing to Mr Doyle and threatening to write to Audi Germany etc. so I was in the same boat without a paddle as everyone else. I know you should not have to do this but telling Audi UK you are not going quietly got all my costs and a good will settlement so this should be open to everyone.

Just an update for everyone that you must pursue Audi UK and do not give up. Audi UK have now paid for- recovery charges from the breakdown to delivery to Audi Bath a courtesy car while the car was in for repair for 6 days the repair and replacement costs MY EXTENDED WARRANTY PREMIUM FOR 12 MONTHS GOODWILL GESTURE OF £1000 I think it is quite obvious Audi UK know they have a problem and will do what they can to keep customers on side. So do not give up make a lot of noise as there is no reason my treatment should be any different from anyone else.

I think that is a reaction we all have, let’s get out. However that could be out of the frying pan into the fire as most modern cars have their issues. My thoughts have been - I have been through this now understand the warning signs will take immediate action to turn every non essential electrical circuit off and drive to a dealer or safe location. I have a spare alternator in my garage, which I take on continental trips so I can get any competent garage to replace it. That way I am comfortable to manage any future failures.

The fact that thevAA ‘ found not charging’ should be enough to pin point the Alternator.

Well done. Mr Corcoran has responded to my question which he is unable to answer because he trotted out the response he had from Audi, which was probably in very guarded language. He has suggested I submit a Freedom of Information request to the DVSA for the Audi response- which I have done. Watch this space!

Nik, now you have had the fault and know how to deal with it it is not so bad. I still love my RS6 and do not really want to part with it but have a spare alternator which I tske with me on long trips abroad just in case, so I have decided I can live with the issue.

I have confirmed this document with Audi Bath and it is genuine from Audi UK to all dealers as Audi UK are picking up the bill. I have purchased a spare alternator which is sitting in my garage waiting the next failure. Part number A4N1 903 028 B should be the same for all mild hybrid VW/ Audi cars

See DANs post 2 august above

I hhave had a response from the DVSA and have gone back to them with a reply below. The more users who can contact them wit their experences they may get off their back sides. email john.corcoran@dvsa.gov.uk Dear Mr Corcoran, Thank you for your email dated 14 August. If I am to summarise the DVSA only considers safety defects if they comply or not with the ‘the Code’. In your opinion these vehicles have a two stage warning system which is both visual and acoustic which meets type approval under the code. Having experience this failure first hand I should like to explore this two stage warning system in more detail. STAGE ONE 1] What are the visual and audible warnings triggered when the alternator fails to charge? 2] How is the driver informed that the failure is that the alternator is no longer charging the battery? 3] How does this stage warn the driver that continued vehicle use will lead to ‘roll out’ and that he should park the vehicle safely as soon as possible ? 4] How long does Stage One last before Stage Two kicks in? 5] What does ‘the Code’ state is the reasonable warnings and time given to the driver to take action? STAGE TWO 1] What are the visual and acoustic warnings triggered at stage two? 2] How is the driver informed that he is now in Stage Two and this is becoming more critical? 3] How does stage two warn the driver to stop as soon as possible and what is the average time frame between stage two activation and vehicle failure- ‘roll out’ ? 4] What is the Code spec for stage two? Some of the points in your email are incorrect judging from my experience and that of others: You state that 12v battery depletion should support secondary systems such as lighting and steering but in my experience, Stage Two this support depletes in a matter of seconds and the following items become inoperable: Gearbox Handbrake, therefore on a slope the driver cannot exit the vehicle Rear doors being opened from inside if child locks have been engaged or outside as locking automatically engages above 10mph Front doors from outside Tail gate so there is no access to warning triangle You also state that initially the 12v battery should support secondary systems for a period of time allowing the driver to bring the car to a safe stop. In hindsight you are right but at the time the driver does not know what the problem is and what he should do about it beyond contacting his dealer, as advised by the handbook. This frankly is the nub of the matter, but I await your responses to my questions above as I may have missed some warning signs.

If you seriously cannot get an alternator I can let yiu have my spare which is sitting on my garage shelf on the basis you replace it when there is one available. Let me know

They are missing the point, either deliberately or they are thick. can they tell users what the 2 stage warnings are that make this situation Code compliant?

Just scroll up and you will find my post from Thursday this week with his email address

I have now written to my MP asking why the DVSA who are there to uphold vehicle safety are only interested in filing any issues?

Cally, pls send your story to mr Corcoran as I am going to pursue this as they are the Govt Agency who is there for us.

Unfortunately you are right. The longer this goes on and vehicles drop out of warranty then users will just accept a failure as an older vehicle problem, and Audi will have dodged the bullet. What is so annoying is we have a public body who is there at our expense to safeguard the public sitting on their hands just moving the problem off their desk and into a filing cabinet. If I do not get a positive response from mr Corcoran then next step my MP.

I have had a very speedy response from DVSA which I have copied in below, together with my reply. However it is clear that DVSA need to see more evidence of 48v/12v system failures so i will ask everyone you has contributed to email john.corcoran@dvsa.gov.uk Mr Hayward Thank you for your email and we note your comments. I’m not able to discuss the case referenced but can advise DVSA investigates safety defects within the terms of the Code of Practice on Vehicle Safety Defects (the Code), which has the support of the General Product Safety Regulations 2005 (as amended). This can be accessed at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/code-of-practice-on-vehicle-safety-defects-and-recalls/vehicle-safety-defects-and-recalls-code-of-practice When investigating an allegation of a safety defect DVSA considers any warnings and the immediate impact the defect may have on occupants and the driver’s ability to control the vehicle, bring it to a halt etc. Whereas DVSA has not yet determined a safety defect as defined by the Code, its Market Surveillance Unit continues to monitor reports to collate any additional evidence, and I have added your report to our investigation file. I note your comments on warnings displayed and recommendations. Vehicles sold in the UK must either have European whole vehicle type approval (EWVTA) or certain other recognised approvals. Our understanding is this vehicle fully meets EWVTA and requirements for the UK. However, vehicle type approval is the responsibility of the Vehicle Certification Agency (VCA) and you may wish to address your concerns on this to them. Their web site address is Homepage - Vehicle Certification Agency (vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk) Thank you Dear Mr Corcoran, Thank you for your speedy response. As much as I understand you are unable to discuss the case I highlighted, it would appear that my experience was a mirror image of that case. From my professional life my understanding is once an electronic system is commissioned its software and firmware will act in exactly the same way for all items so produced, everyone who has Audi cars with this fault will experience the same life threatening failure scenario. I have looked at the Code of Practice and note that DVSA has responsibilities to monitor and investigate issues that affect automotive product safety. Then it is your responsibility to identify potential safety issues and work with the manufactures to rectify such defects. So far so good you are the organisation to look into the defects highlighted by myself and others. However from what you say , so far you have been unable to identify my experience and the experience of others as a ‘safety defect’. Could you please explain how being trapped in an inert vehicle, which could become involved in a shunt or catch fire is NOT a safety defect? If you accept my argument above that once an electronic system has been commissioned then all systems will act in the same way then your being advised of one failure surely will mean that all systems [48v/12 hybrids] will suffer the same failure mode. I note your action is to add my observations to your file. How many similar observations do your need before you act? Do you need someone to be killed on a smart motorway, unable to exit their Audi before you take action? I will try to get all the people I know who have experience the same safety issue as me to write to you. In the meantime I await your response to my questions. Rgds Mark Hayward

Hi David, I am not convinced this is an alternator manufacturing fault as Audi appear to be replacing like for like. My personal opinion is that this starter/generator is being asked to do too much- acting as an alternator one minute and a starter the next. If my hypothesis is right then most failures will be from vehicles who regularly are in stop/start traffic. Either way it does not let Audi off the hook from not having a sensible warning. glad to hear you are getting some of your claim sorted

David,I too have been in touch with the DVSA and have sent them the following today: Dear Lucy, Thank you for your email, I do hope you can forward this to one of your senior Motor Engineers for further investigation. I am aware that DVSA have carried out a preliminary investigation ref 43989 but I feel this lacked serious probing and DVSA appear to have been fobbed off by Audi, who appear to be wanting to sweep this under the carpet. I am attaching the letter I sent to Audi which describes the incident I experience, which has been mirrored by numerous other Audi owners, but I am using your findings in 43989 and addressing those as they need to be probed into. THE MANUFACTURER ADVISES THEY HAVE NO RECORD OF SIMILAR OUTCOMES This statement is untrue. Audi UK have had numerous complaints; however, these complaints are listed by Audi Executive Office as Electrical Issues. They do not break this down into 48/12v Mild Hybrid or alternator issues. So, when you ask for information on a specific topic, they can say they have no records. In March 2024 my local Audi Dealer had repaired 3 vehicles with this alternator failure. There are 1500 VW/Audi dealers in the UK, if they all had the similar number of complaints then this would amount to 4500 vehicles, not an insignificant number. THEY ARE NOT AWARE OF ANY VEHICLE COMING TO AN IMMEDIATE STOP To be fair the vehicle takes about 30 seconds to come to a stop. Various electrical circuits shut down but the driver has no idea what is going on or why. Just that certain things like electric windows and aircon stop working. They say there are a variety of warning messages. However, these warning messages do not tell the driver that the battery is no longer being charged, there are warning messages that the battery has a fault and you should contact the dealer. The problem here is that the car is very power hungry using 12v for everything from lights to operating the gearbox, seats, aircon, etc with no charge going to it, it is not long before there is a catastrophic failure when the driver and his passengers become trapped in an inert vehicle. As you will see from my attached note to Audi there is nothing to tell the driver he is heading into an electrical abyss. When I challenged Audi as to why there was not a ‘battery not being charged’ warning light they told me this was no longer an EU Vehicle Build Standards requirement! LOCKED DOORS If you have operated the Child lock button on the doors, as you would if you regularly travel with children, then when the 12v power dies there is no way to release this and the doors CANNOT be opened from the inside or the outside. Nor can the tail gate door be released to either remove rear passengers or access the warning triangle. This is the most serious system failure. Nor can the parking brake be operated allowing the driver to exit the vehicle. THE REAL ISSUE This is not about a component failure such as the alternator as vehicle components fail all the time and are repaired or replaced. This is about the lack on due diligence by Audi in their design of this 48/12v hybrid system. What Risk Assessment did Audi do in their design of their electrical warning system? Did they consider that failure of the 12v system could immobilise the vehicle with very little warning and put driver and passengers’ safety at risk? What are Audi going to do about changing the system software so that better warnings are given, as suggested in my attached letter?